In the 20 years since that awful day, law enforcers of every stripe have grown more aggressive and become more well armed. Every little podunk town across the land now has a SWAT team. Like the little boy with the hammer who thinks that everything is a nail, these goons continue to find new and creative ways to use their tools of oppression. Law enforcers learned one big thing from Waco. You may lie, maim and murder and get away with it all in the name of “officer safety”.
Shame on every thug with a badge and all who are employed in the field of “enforcement”.
Fire and smoke are timeless weapons, and ones that can be used to eliminate both people and evidence. Plausable deniability is another benefit.
Probably a good idea to have more than two fire extinguishers on hand, and the best smoke detector you can afford.
A.G.February 28, 2013 7:27 pm
There are two links at the bottom of the article that are also relevant. One has a short video about smoke hoods.
Mr GaltFebruary 28, 2013 8:33 pm
CS “gas” uses methylene chloride (ME) as a common carrying agent – I know, I dealt with environmental cleanups at military bases where the stuff was used in significant quantities for training. ME is in turn, HIGHLY flammable. The fact that the f-ers in the government claimed then (as now) that CS is non-flammable is a pathetic joke. Even more pathetic, the news media is too incompetent and lazy to even look-up the MSDS sheets for the stuff to see for themselves.
The Davidians were murdered, which was payback for not rolling over like good doggies when the thick-necked ATF thugs poured in and started shooting.
And they got away with it. Just like Ruby Ridge, just like Fast and Furious, and just like their next soon-to-be-determined “enforcement action” against law abiding citizens who don’t “fit” the mold but DO fit the government’s agenda.
DJ Lawman SaysFebruary 28, 2013 9:54 pm
I do understand your point of view folks, but as a law enforcement officer of 10 plus years and a retired marine. I take offense to as Keven 3% statement, “Shame on every thug with a badge and all who are employed in the field of “enforcement” That stings and every time I hear that it is usually from some punk thug who I have just arrested for beating the crap out of his (Insert Herer) Girlfriend, Wife, Mother,Aunt. Of the drunk driver that just survived a head on with a family of four and I had to peel a 3 year old girl out of the wreck, just to have her die in my arms. I could go on and on about my carrer in both the marines and law enforcement. But I won’t but I will say this. The branch divids brought it on themselves
SRMarch 1, 2013 5:22 am
How?
WoodyMarch 1, 2013 6:23 am
DJ Lawman said, “The branch divids brought it on themselves”
SR asked, “How?”
Woody says, By not being sufficiently obsequious to the government thugs. There is only one acceptable attitude to law enforcement. That being complete submission.
Matt, anotherMarch 1, 2013 6:33 am
I never thought the women and children that died in the final fire brought it on themselves.
It was a case of the Clinton administration, through DOJ and Janet Reno wanting to show theat they could be tough on “crime.” They picked a target that was easy to marginalize (splinter sect of a religion that isn’t politically powerful). They were also physically separate so raiding their home would cut down on potential collateral damage.
Also never explained is why branch davidians that were not present in Waco were rounded up and held for questioning and pending charges. Was it because the government wanted them intimidated enough so they would seek answers?
A-MoleMarch 1, 2013 8:06 am
DJ Lawman wrote:
‘The branch divids brought it on themselves’
You almost had me sympathetic to your point of view, right up to the end, when your true nature was revealed.
Sir, you are the enemy.
Kevin3%March 1, 2013 8:57 am
DJ Lawman,
Your comment reinforces my position. You should be ashamed but you are too busy patting yourself on the back for your thuggery.
“brought it upon themselves” is the standard of you and your fellow goons. Apparently, this is what soothes your conscience (assuming you have one). 18 children burned to death in that place! FUCK YOU! They most certainly did not bring their deaths upon themselves.
Once upon a time in America, we had peace officers. Now we have “Law Enforcers”. Too many laws and too many goons being paid to enforce them.
Military tactics have no place in the realm of civilian police work, but you and your goons feed on that adrenaline rush. You wish for a nation in which little badge and boot-lickers will grovel before you. I’d rather die than ever submit to your ilk.
Look in the mirror and know that you are a traitor to your oath and nothing more than what you claim to abhor. You just can’t seem to wrap your head around that because of the mutual admiration society your belong to.
You belong to a gang with badges. Thuggery is thuggery no matter what colors you wear.
A.G.March 1, 2013 9:44 am
I was with you until the last sentence, DJ. Thanks for making the rest of us look like baby burners. Have you done any homework on the subject at hand (acknowledging that most of today’s LEO and mil were in high school or below at the time of the slaughter) , or are you one of those “Anything for a paycheck” types?
ClaireMarch 1, 2013 9:52 am
I’m with A.G. I would have the utmost respect for people who put their lives on the line to clean up society’s dirtiest messes and to protect their fellow man. But DJ, your glib (and heartless) assumption that the Branch Davidians “brought it on themselves” and therefore deserve what they got reveals that you not only haven’t bothered to look into the events, but that you also don’t actually give one bit of a damn about your fellow humans. Or their rights.
Mr GaltMarch 1, 2013 4:05 pm
Ironic you would say that DJ – “they brought it on themselves”. It’s a lot like what those wife beaters would probably say when you arrested them, no?
Kent McManigalMarch 1, 2013 8:16 pm
DJ EnforcerThug- “That stings and every time I hear that it is usually from some punk thug who I have just arrested for beating the crap out of his (Insert Herer [sic]) Girlfriend, Wife, Mother,Aunt…. Of [sic] the drunk driver that just survived a head on with a family of four…”
I say that all the time and have NEVER beat anyone (not even those who deserved it), nor had a drunk driving wreck. I’ve never even been “arrested” (kidnapped)- although it may happen someday as the LEOs get more and more out of control and evil. Yep, the bad apples truly do make the other .00001% look bad. Thanks for proving that point better than any liberty-lover could have ever done.
Old PrinterMarch 1, 2013 9:28 pm
DJ Lawman has it right. Vernon Howell, aka David Koresh, was no hero. So many people who are pro-freedom have made the Davidians into martyrs, and it sickens me. Koresh was no better than the Rev. Jim Jones of the Peoples Temple massacre fame. Two-hundred innocent children were murdered by that monster – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones
– while Koresh was directly responsible for the murders of 23 children, and the child rape of dozens. What both of them had in common was an irrational belief in end days garbage. Jones thought a nuclear holocaust would bring about a communist nirvana, while Koresh professed a belief in the end days prophecy of the Book of Revelation. Both of them were murdering sociopaths.
For 20 years my neighbor here in California was one of the founders of the the Shepard’s Rod, later called the Branch Davidians. His name is Cecil Helman. He is past 90 now and suffering from old age dementia but was at the right hand of Victor Houteff, the Davidian founder and prophet. He made the 11th Hour Clock mosaic laid in the entrance of the original Mt. Carmel in Waco. It is referred to as the “Helman Clock” and is still there. “The best known Davidian artifact is a clock, set in the floor of the central building of Old Mount Carmel, with the hands set near the eleventh hour, indicating that the end of time is near. This physical reminder of the end of time captures perfectly the essence of the Davidians and Branch Davidians.” http://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/ird01
Helman and others who got out before the Rodens and Koresh knew where to put the blame.
I will grant that the FBI was complicit in the murders. But the truly responsible person was Vernon Howell. May he rot in hell.
Jim KleinMarch 1, 2013 10:24 pm
“The branch divids brought it on themselves”
I can’t believe you wrote that. I don’t stun too easily, but that one stunned me.
It’s absolutely disgusting to imply such a thing. The only thing even remotely like “charges” was about child abuse, and the State had ALREADY completed an investigation and CLEARED the group.
Those people were INTENTIONALLY incinerated, and they DID NOT “bring it on themselves.” You can tell by seeing who went to attack whom, where…and then what happened. Doing it while announcing, “This is not an attack” was just an ironic way of admitting how intentional it was.
Never mind that this entire country was founded for the particular purpose that people should be able to pray and believe as they wish. I’ve seen a lot of bullshit in my day, but that sentence right there ranks right up there with the worst of it.
I’d suggest you completely retract the sentence, just as quickly as your conscience allows. Forget about how others feel about you—this is the sort of thing that causes disease, and fast. That’s why it’s called dis-ease.
You either didn’t mean what you wrote, didn’t understand what you wrote, or are living in another world and won’t survive this one long.
Old PrinterMarch 1, 2013 11:25 pm
The only thing even remotely like “charges” was about child abuse, and the State had ALREADY completed an investigation and CLEARED the group.
This is not true. Koresh wasn’t charged because Texas law allows marriage at 14 and the Davidians under his spell lied through there teeth to either protect him or more likely out of fear for the children. Koresh was having sex with multiple 13 and 14 year old girls, supposedly with parental consent. Unless polygamy is also legal in Texas, he was raping them, and producing bastard children, with children.
There is plenty of blame attached to the FBI, but the fact is that under Koresh the Davidians had become a suicidal dooms day cult.
Jim KleinMarch 2, 2013 6:01 am
WHAT’S not true, OP? Was there an investigation by the State? Were ANY charges brought? If there were, then set ’em out. If there weren’t, then it’s TRUE that they were “cleared by the State.”
I don’t give a hoot what sort of nitwits the Davidians were. In this country, you’re allowed to be a nitwit and religious nitwits are both specifically protected and have a special place in the founding of this country.
That’s all. You see, I understand that if the rational are to be free, then the irrational must be free too.
Jim KleinMarch 2, 2013 6:22 am
“But the truly responsible person was Vernon Howell.”
I hope you understand that shoddy thinking like this, is what brought us to where we are.
“Responsible”…FOR WHAT??? Koresh was responsible for whatever HE did. His murderers were responsible for what THEY did. How tough is that to understand?
Now go look who attacked whom, and who incinerated whom. And here you are, using the oh-so-common fallacy of ad hominem to distract, as if Koresh’s badness can somehow alleviate the responsibility of his murderers.
Next you’ll be telling us that it’s Koresh’s fault that you can’t see plain reality.
Kent McManigalMarch 2, 2013 7:32 am
I guess that if you follow a loonie you deserve to be roasted alive by the government. I guess that killing kids equals saving them from abuse. According to some people…. Goodness, I hope I never get victimized by anyone to give thugs an excuse to murder me for my own good!
Old PrinterMarch 2, 2013 7:57 am
I understand the, in my opinion, misplaced sympathy for the Davidians. I’ve spent hours listening to Cecil Helman recount his youth at the original Mount Carmel. During The Depression they were a self-sufficient compound, which in some ways mimics the preppers of today. But they were not a heavily armed cult of child molesters. They had a school on site that taught practical skills. Cecil learned carpentry and plastering as well as finish concrete work. Even as an old man he plastered the house built next door to me, and built a stone and concrete water box also finish plastered.
When his wife Nancy died he made her wood coffin and with the help of neighbors buried her in the local cemetery, without government involvement.
Like the Davidians at the original Mt. Carmel, they planted fruit trees, always had a garden and canned for winter, and bought goat milk from another neighbor.
He believed that David Koresh, and the Rodens before him, were false prophets. He kept in touch with Davidians spread all over the country who felt the same way.
The problem is that people have been conned into believing that Koresh and his cult were like the original Davidians. They were not. Koresh gained control of the new Mt. Carmel property at gun point. Attempted murder charges were brought against him because he tried to kill George Roden who was the son of Lois Roden, the then “owner” of the property. George Roden was running a meth lab out of the place. Koresh, like Jim Jones, was a charismatic leader who began stock piling weapons. His actions speak of paranoia, big time. The events he envisioned, and the actions he took to achieve it, became a very tragic self-fulling prophecy.
Old PrinterMarch 2, 2013 8:13 am
One question for all you defenders of the Koresh Cult. The true Branch Davidians were an offshoot of the 7th Day Adventist Church. They are vegetarians and do not hunt game or raise livestock that is butchered. They have been given conscientious objector status in the military because they ALL believe that killing another human being, for whatever reason, is against God’s law. None of them to my knowledge even own weapons for self-defense.
So then why did Koresh arm Mt. Carmel like a military compound?
Kevin3%March 2, 2013 8:22 am
Jim Klein said: “I don’t give a hoot what sort of nitwits the Davidians were. In this country, you’re allowed to be a nitwit and religious nitwits are both specifically protected and have a special place in the founding of this country.
“That’s all. You see, I understand that if the rational are to be free, then the irrational must be free too.”
I thank you for making that point.
The idea that a person’s/group’s odd religious beliefs should be grounds for persecution, alienation, and demon-ization is just wrong. This is something that is lost on those who attempt to justify the wrongful action of the fedgov.
Furthermore, allegations of child abuse, rape or inappropriate contact with minors do not come under the jurisdiction of the ATF. Not now and not in 1993.
What I have noticed in the 20 years of arguing with statists about how right they believe the fedgoons were, is that there is no reasoning with them. Constitutional protections of due process are not relevant in their twisted minds. Obey the commands of the jack-booted thugs or you will suffer their wrath, up to and including murder by arson.
In my opinion, Koresh and his followers held some very odd beliefs. It does not follow that I think the fedgov should murder them because of those beliefs. Nor should they have been denied due process.
It is also quite clear that the apologists for government heavy-handedness are okay with U.S. Military engaging in a civilian police action.
All you boot-lickers will go on believing the propaganda of the state sponsored murderers. It does not matter what anyone says. Enjoy your chains and servitude. Don’t be surprised when one day you are labeled as being odd and worthy of annihilation.
DJ LawmanMarch 2, 2013 11:06 am
First I would like to say that my comment was incomplete and incorrect. The children surly did not deser ve to die nor the women. However, koresh was a psyco and at the very least deserved to be take. Alive and tried. With that being said when waco went down I was a marine. Not law enforcement. And way back then I thought the davidions were nuts. But what I believed then and now is a real man/men dont put women and children in harms way period! You can call me chivalrous or not. But that was not their fight. Koresh was a coward end of story! He was just as responsible as the govt for their deaths. In my book more so. But hey you can call me a thug/ tyrant/goon what ever. It doesnt effect me. Because those that use that language are self absorbed/ ignorant as to what I /we do. But when someones in need of my help I’m there at the head of the line. I am willing to put it all on the line for those that need me. Even those that dont know or like me.
-sMarch 2, 2013 12:49 pm
I have to wonder why thugs and trolls bother to come to a place like this. Claims that any of the men, women, or children murdered by the government “deserved it” or “brought it on themselves” are defense of summary execution. Period. Now the emperor claims that power, but in truth the thugs have been exercising it regularly for decades.
I’m not surprised that there are thugs; I’m only surprised to find them here. Whenever a thug starts whining about the little kids they claim to have saved once upon a time, I think about a serial rapist who spends every Sunday helping little old ladies cross the street. He’s still a rapist. His occasional good deed does not erase the enormity of his evil.
A thug is a thug, changing the costume doesn’t change the nature of the evil. The status of whomever issues the paycheck doesn’t change the morality of the actions. Busting heads for the man, shooting nursing mothers in the head, or beating up protesters is part of the job. The job of being paid to hurt people. That is the definition of thug.
As for the troll, I don’t feed them. This one isn’t coherent enough to be entertaining.
Old PrinterMarch 2, 2013 12:51 pm
Jim Klein you are right that the government was way out of bounds at Waco. But what they did amounted to “suicide by cop” because of the actions of Koresh. I’m not excusing the ATF or Janet Reno from their role in it. As I wrote above, they were complicit in the murders.
But please stop making this cult out to be martyrs. They were feeding little girls to a child molester. What’s to say that God allowed this to happen because of that?
Old PrinterMarch 2, 2013 12:54 pm
You’re right -S, or is it Claire? I swore off a year ago. Should have known better than try to talk common sense to close-minded gun nuts. Bye.
RogerMarch 2, 2013 1:23 pm
Old Printer Says:
March 2nd, 2013
Jim Klein you are right that the government was way out of bounds at Waco. But what they did amounted to “suicide by cop” because of the actions of Koresh. I’m not excusing the ATF or Janet Reno from their role in it. As I wrote above, they were complicit in the murders.
But please stop making this cult out to be martyrs. They were feeding little girls to a child molester. What’s to say that God allowed this to happen because of that?
——— You really don’t get it do you. The fact that a child’s parents may be abusive, or criminal or religious wackos does not mean the children should be murdered by the state. If you cannot understand that very basic point there is absolutly no hope for you. That the ATF and the FBI would willingly assault a plywood building using everything including armoured vehicles whilst those children were in there beggars belief. You actually think that this equates to suicide by cop? Do the cops in your neighbourhood usually gun down the children of suspects then?
Using your principles Obama could merrily nuke most of the middle east because they’re religious nutjobs and therefore their children deserve to die anyhow!!
jesse boganMarch 2, 2013 1:26 pm
It just does not matter if Koresh was good or bad, if the Davidians were on the up and up or not. None of that is the central issue. The facts seem to be that the ATF raided the “compound”, and had it televised for the PR value, and the raid went south. After waiting a whole 51 days, Reno, and Clintoon raided the joint, and burned it to the ground. They shot people that tried to escape the fire…. I heard a lot of stuff during that event, allegations of child abuse, manufacturing machine guns, and so on. All of those were handed out by the government. I frankly don’t believe a damn thing they say. The same thing applies to al Awlawki and the drone strikes. If the Feral Government has evidence, then TRY them. Even in absentia, bring the evidence out in public, but don’t just feed me a line, and expect me to believe it anymore. Check out “copsproduction” blog for some current Waco info.
Daniel MorsethMarch 2, 2013 5:07 pm
For anyone who thinks that there was ANY excuse for the gutless sons of bitches who murdered the innocents at Waco, then posed with the flames and smoke in the background because they were so proud of their work, fuck you. For any cop here who defends the bastards actions, please do the world a favor and rinse your mouth out with a 12 gauge. The fact is that Koresh went into the same little place in town every day and went unarmed. Anyone with two brain cells could have arrested him without incident. That is the simple fact. But the cowards with their TWAT gear and armored vehicles got such a hard-on at the thought of slaughtering a whole compound of people and getting away with it, they didn’t want to do the easy and safe way. I’m sure they still have wet dreams thinking about the screams and the smell of burning flesh. Perverts get off that way. As for the too-few gov thugs who bit the dust, I piss on their graves. They were traitors to the oath and to humanity.
Old PrinterMarch 2, 2013 7:36 pm
“I am willing to put it all on the line for those that need me. Even those that dont know or like me.”
Thank you, DJ Lawman, for your service in defending this country, and the risks you currently take everyday.
The current sheriff of Pacific County, Washington is a former Washington State Trooper who was ambushed and shot in the head twice at close range while on duty. He still carries bullet fragments in his skull, and ringing in his ears from the assault a few years ago. I don’t know about his dreams or nightmares. He doesn’t talk much about that. But I guess he’s just another thug, right? You people make me sick.
Jim KleinMarch 2, 2013 7:41 pm
“That the ATF and the FBI would willingly assault a plywood building using everything including armoured vehicles whilst those children were in there beggars belief.”
My thing is epistemology. Yours may be an interesting statement about what does or does not beggar your belief, but you have fully succumbed to thousands of years of philosophical monstrosity.
Yes, succumbed. Sorry about that but since it’s a mind, you get to bring it back to life again. And this isn’t about you; it’s about how you’re thinking. Worry not, you’re far from alone. Duh, that’s why you all do it.
Please, understand…reality is how it is. That’s what “fact” means; it’s how reality IS. So no matter your beliefs, nor your justifications based on those beliefs, the reality of it–the FACT of the matter–is that the ATF and FBI did indeed “assault a plywood building using everything including armoured vehicles whilst those children were in there.” Yes, THEY DID. That is, IT HAPPENED. Now look what you’re arguing IN FAVOR of, wholly because something “beggars” your belief. Stop and THINK—you’re figuring out why it could possibly be okay to forcefully attack and then cause the incineration of human beings. INCLUDING THE CHILDREN.
I mean, damn…why not go back to the Earth being flat? If I had more time, it might be fun reading how everyone looks to the Davidians to explain the actions of those government employees, as if the evil of the Davidians could possibly equal the incineration of all those people.
So lemme guess…just as soon as someone judges me to be a rotten person, they get to come and slaughter me? Is that the lesson here? Or is the lesson that YOU shouldn’t be paying for all this?
Now this is when we get to hear, “But everyone’s paying for it, and THAT principle is more important than children being incinerated.”
Alright, go for it. That’s what you’re saying—not you personally, but anyone who says the Davidians “had it coming” or anything crazy like that. Go ahead, explain away—explain exactly which higher cause was accomplished by burning those folk away.
Jim KleinMarch 2, 2013 7:49 pm
“The current sheriff of Pacific County, Washington is a former Washington State Trooper who was ambushed and shot in the head twice at close range while on duty. He still carries bullet fragments in his skull, and ringing in his ears from the assault a few years ago. I don’t know about his dreams or nightmares. He doesn’t talk much about that. But I guess he’s just another thug, right?”
Don’t you get it? He is if he is, isn’t if he isn’t. HE’S HIM.
Now look at yourself. You’re offering WOUNDS as some sort of proof that something is GOOD. Wounded or not, he’s either a thug or not. Is that really so tough to understand?
“You people make me sick.”
See, there you go with exactly the same error. Other people DID NOT make you how you are. Believe as you want, but that’s the reality of it. Personally I think we’re much happier going along with the reality around us, but that’s me.
ClaireMarch 2, 2013 8:06 pm
The current sheriff of Pacific County, Washington, is also an avid drug warrior who campaigned on the position that asset forfeiture (without due process) should be used more enthusiastically to fund cop-ops and other government functions.
Jim KleinMarch 2, 2013 8:27 pm
Without due process? Rookies…here in Michigan they used to do it without charges.
RogerMarch 3, 2013 1:52 am
Jim Klein. I think you misunderstand me. I know they did so what I mean is that it is….surreal maybe a better word that members of law enforcement of a supposedly democratic country would commit such an act and that the perpetrators of such an act are not, at least, imprisoned for the rest of their lives. The fact that there is extensive forensic evidence, witnesses and TV footage to be used at trial makes it even more distressing. At Nuremberg convictions were secured with less and the murderers justly punished.
Kevin3%March 3, 2013 4:41 am
What amazes me about those in the “brought it upon themselves” camp is the fact that they try to assert that anyone who is/was appalled by the government’s actions at Waco is somehow a supporter of Koresh and his silly beliefs. That is a classic non-sequitur.
So, let me try to explain. What those who argue against such actions are arguing in favor of:
#1- The right of the people to be secure from unreasonable searches and seizures.
#2- That every man, woman and child should be afforded due process at law.
#3- That self defense is a basic human right.
#4- That innocence is presumed to exist until and unless it has been proven in a court of law that one is guilty.
#5- That the use of Military personnel and equipment is strictly forbidden in civilian policing.
#6- That the aforementioned are fundamental tenets secured by the Supreme Law of the Land -The U.S. Constitution and therefore must be obeyed by state actors.
#7- That there should be some level of accountability for perpetrators of government’s wrongful actions.
ClaireMarch 3, 2013 5:18 am
Well said, Kevin3%. Well said. I’ve been trying to find a way to articulate all that since yesterday; you did it better than I ever could.
Kevin3%March 3, 2013 7:04 am
Thanks, Claire.
I hold you in very high regard and your comment truly means a lot to me.
Sadly, my frustration and serious depression about the issue interfered with my ability to articulate it in that manner, for 20 years! The events at Waco shook me to my core and drove me into a terrible despair. I fear for my children (who were at the time 8 and 3 years old) and the future state of Amerika that they will live in.
I do not suppose it will change the mind of one single thug apologist. I can only hope that new comers to the subject may learn something from it.
DJ LawmanMarch 3, 2013 8:08 am
Ok then, I see that I’m the bad guy. That’s fine… we all know where each other stand… Claire I love who you are and what you do and stand for be leave it or not. And I respect you opinion and everyone else also. I don’t agree with a lot of the arguments made but that is my right and my opinion. To those of you who think that if you are law enforcement you are automatically bad. Ie kevin 3%, Jim Klien. I would never be able to get through to you no matter how much I talked. So I won’t try. needless to say your more part of the problem then you think. Thank you Old Printer for your support. I do it for you as well as the rest. I hope you all have a good week.
RogerMarch 3, 2013 8:41 am
Kevin 3%, very eloquently put and spot on. D J Lawman if you cannot agree with his last but one post I dearly hope you are considering changing career. Far to much law enforcement worldwide finds civil rights to be unconveinient and are willing to ride roughshod over them if they can. Koresh and his followers may have been loons of the first order but they still had rights under the BOR and the constitution!
WoodyMarch 3, 2013 8:51 am
DJLawman, I would love to hear your response to the 7 items in Keven3%’s post. Please give us a chance to understand your stance on those issues and how they bear on your opinion of the Branch Davidian’s treatment by the government.
ClaireMarch 3, 2013 9:49 am
DJLawman — I thank you for your personal graciousness. And I second Woody. I would be very interested to hear you (and Old Printer) respond point-by-point to Kevin3%’s list.
Jim KleinMarch 3, 2013 3:08 pm
“Far to much law enforcement worldwide finds civil rights to be unconveinient…”
Well said, and it screams the question: “Too inconvenient…for WHAT?”
What the hell is trying to be accomplished, that this could possibly be justified? That’s why I asked, “…explain exactly which higher cause was accomplished by burning those folk away.”
Kevin3%March 3, 2013 4:44 pm
What the hell is trying to be accomplished, that this could possibly be justified? That’s why I asked, “…explain exactly which higher cause was accomplished by burning those folk away.”
I posit that the entire stand-off became an affront to the collective ego of some very small-minded individuals. It is unfathomable to many (maybe most) in Law “Enforcement” that they could be challenged in such a brazen and direct manner. They had never in their careers felt so powerless. It was embarrassing for them to be there with all of their equipment and well trained “negotiators” and to be rebuffed for their arrogance. That hurt their overblown sense of self.
They tried, brute force and it did not work. They tried bullying with the tanks crushing the cars and children’s toys. They tried psycho manipulation with the torturous loud music and recordings of screaming animals. They tried sleep deprivation. They tried lies and manipulation of every kind. None of it worked and that pissed them off. Well then, the esteemed FBI could not allow this to go on. No one does that to the greatest Law “Enforcement” agency in the world and gets away with it! They were going to show who was the master in this relationship…..even if it meant they needed to kill everyone of the “enemy”.
To my mind, this highlights the utter depravity of many who choose to enforce laws upon others. It is about control and dominance and power. It is about group-think, the ultimate us-versus-them mindset that is so prevalent in law “enforcement”. It is a sickness in our culture and sicker still that the American people accepted it, tolerated it and swallowed the lie.
What could have possibly been the down-side of just waiting the Davidians out? Answer: The loss of face that would be suffered by the fedgoons.
Shame on them! If there is a hell, I hope there is an especially hot place in it for these cretins.
TahnMarch 3, 2013 5:15 pm
DJ Lawman,
It is important for all of us to consider the thoughts and actions of ourselves and others but I believe we can only do so through the correct understanding of terms.
When you speak of helping broken humans on the highways, of stopping rapists and thieves, of charging to the sound of guns to stand between perps and victims, I salute you. And I am sure that most, if not all who follow Claire would agree with me, although I am certainly only speaking for myself. As Claire has explained in her writings, this is enforcing Mala in se, the laws against evil. Murder, rape, robbery, kidnapping, arson etc. Most on the planet agree these acts are evil. Thank you for your service in these regards. We think of the guardians of these basic laws against evil as Peace Officers who enforce the rule of law.
However there is and always has been, a tendency for those in power to create rules of prohibition (Mala prohibita). Rules which enforce concepts that the power in charge wishes according to their own beliefs and dogma. You must wear a turban, can’t smoke pot, women must cover their bodies, you can’t buy beer on Sunday, can’t have weapons or can’t keep them concealed. Laws and rules in which there is no victim. We now have in in our land, thousands upon thousands of these rules and they are expanding.
This is the Law of Rules. These are enforced by LEO’s. Law enforcement officers or more properly, Rule Enforcement Officers. Regardless of the ideals and beliefs of the enforcers, they are violating Mala in se, in order to enforce their rules. They violate the Law against evil to enforce petty dictates of the controllers. This is evil and why you have received the disdain of many on the forum, aside from your ill considered remark, which you have apologized for.
You are naturally hurt and defensive believing we refer to your peace officer activities. Not so. We refer to your role as an enforcer of the rules, violating the laws against evil to do so.
The founders had thought that they had a method to limit the law of rules, at least concerning the basic rights of mankind as they saw them. It is called the bill of rights, not the bill of permissions. Every judicial officer in the country is required to take an oath to protect the Constitution and Bill of Rights. I assume that you did so twice, as military and as a police officer, although I have learned that many officers take a union oath instead. If I might ask, which oath did you take?
If your oath was to protect the Constitution, how can you make an arrest for any weapons violations or drug crime or underage drinking or any other rule they come up with, where there is no victim, except the State (in their mind). If you have never bothered or arrested a person who carried a concealed weapon, had drugs or booze or any other mala prohibita, I Sir, Salute You.
If you have enforced these rules and violated the laws against evil to do so (through kidnapping and armed force), how do you reconcile this with your Oath of Duty to the Constitution?
I also agree with Claire and Kevin3%, I would be very interested in your answers to his questions.
Thank you DJ Lawman for participating in this dialog. The only way to peace is through understanding .
Tahn
Old PrinterMarch 4, 2013 12:22 am
Claire and Kevin3%:
I can’t disagree with any of the points made. They are rational and spot on, especially the last one concerning accountability, also the militarizing of local police. You made your case eloquently.
But…what this boils down to for me is that while I know the ATF, Janet Reno and the FBI acted way out of bounds at Waco, there was culpability in the extreme on the part of Vernon Howell. That is also what DJ Lawman, and a lot of other well meaning people believe. It is also why I spilled the story of personal involvement with some of the original Davidians who abandoned Mt Carmel after their prophet/founder died, in an effort to show the difference between the real Davidians, and the cult that Howell/Koresh assembled.
It’s one thing to condemn unlawful actions of the AFT at Waco, or the FBI at Ruby Ridge, or even question the siege and torching of the Symbionese Liberation Army in LA http://wikimapia.org/1669801/Symbionese-Liberation-Army. It is another to paint law enforcement in general with the broad brush of thugs and murderers. They are a reflection of our increasingly disintegrating society where drugs like meth are turning kids into zombies who rob, steal, and kill. Cops are out on the front line dealing with a country falling apart.
Also Claire, I’m sorry to hear that Scott Johnson ran for election on the platform you mentioned. I’ve known him to be the ultimate professional, and a man who would give his life to protect a friend.
DJ LawmanMarch 4, 2013 1:46 am
#1- The right of the people to be secure from unreasonable searches and seizures.
#2- That every man, woman and child should be afforded due process at law.
#3- That self defense is a basic human right.
#4- That innocence is presumed to exist until and unless it has been proven in a court of law that one is guilty.
#5- That the use of Military personnel and equipment is strictly forbidden in civilian policing.
#6- That the aforementioned are fundamental tenets secured by the Supreme Law of the Land -The U.S. Constitution and therefore must be obeyed by state actors.
#7- That there should be some level of accountability for perpetrators of government’s wrongful actions.
There is nothing in Keven’s 7 points that I or any other American would disagree with. Well maybe some… But for me Nothing. I do not find a persons civil rights to be inconvenient or trivial. Those very rights are mine also. Remember I served for 20 years to protect those rights that many of you here accuse me of violating. And you make these assumptions without even knowing me. When I must make an arrest I do not do it lightly. I know what is entailed and every case was taking seriously. But I stray… You all have your opinions as to what Waco is for you… I do not disagree that it should have been handled much differently. I was not there so as with many of you i can only second guess and assume. I do know that today it would be handled much differently. I do not condone the “burning those folks away” No one deserves to go out that way. But I will repeat that you do not know me so do not judge me because I wear a badge. I have never given less then 100 percent to the citizens of my city.
Jim KleinMarch 4, 2013 5:41 am
DJLawman, I’ll speak just for myself. I think it’s you doing the judging of yourself (as it always is for all of us), not others. I haven’t judged you…I don’t know you. But I can judge what you write, since I assume it’s what you believe.
You haven’t addressed the issues, because you can’t. You are offering that there could be some “other issue”–the rottenness of the Davidians, or who knows what–that might somehow trump the injustice of all those people being burned away. Never mind that it was all in violation of the law; never mind the insanity of playing the crazy music and announcing, “This is not an attack,” while attacking.
It’s not your guilt because you wear a uniform. It’s all of our guilt because we paid for it, and we didn’t stop them from doing it. But meanwhile, you’re here DEFENDING it, as if there could be some justification for it. This tells me that were you to find yourself in a similar situation, you’d justify your own actions similarly. Well okay, then stand up and say so—“If I come across some people who I think are bad, even if they’ve violated no law at all, then I will feel justified in murdering and/or incinerating them.”
But you won’t ‘fess up to that, will you? That’s the problem here, for everyone. There is a philosophical disjunct between the thought of the action and the action itself. It was the plain unlawful murder and incineration of INNOCENT–by law innocent, not necessarily morality–adults and children, and you’re here defending it. Do you seriously wonder why there’s mistrust on the part of those who pay for all this craziness?
WoodyMarch 4, 2013 6:20 am
Jim Klein, thank you for your clear analysis of groupthink as practiced by many in law enforcement (copthink?) As someone else pointed out, in order for a police officer to remain employed s/he must violate his/her oath on a regular basis. This must certainly create a lot of cognitive dissonance on the part of anyone who is not a sociopath. So it would seem that cops who aren’t sociopaths must come up with some way of self justifying their actions. Perhaps there is some connection in there somewhere to the high suicide rate among cops?
Kevin3%March 4, 2013 6:42 am
Woody and Jim Klein nailed it.
DJ and Old Printer never really retracted anything they said. They merely qualified their statements and they used the subterfuge of, “that stings”. In other words, they had their little feelings hurt by my comment. Tough shit!
NEWS FLASH: To DJ and Old P: My sensibilities were assaulted in 1993 when the fedgoons attacked, and subsequently murdered the people at Mt. Carmel. In the following years after those horrific events, I watched as government grew bigger and more vile.
My conclusion is that I do not trust anyone in the government, particularly those with the power to kill and maim.
“If you think our police are no threat to your freedom, you’re living in a fantasy world. ”
“I know now that cops like Joe have no problem violating people’s rights, as long as they have some “official” way to do it. ”
“That’s why we have a 2nd Amendment. And officers like me and Joe are why it shouldn’t be repealed.”
Well worth reading the entire post.
just waitingMarch 4, 2013 1:26 pm
Of the drunk driver that just survived a head on with a family of four and I had
to peel a 3 year old girl out of the wreck, just to have her die in my arms.
DJ Lawman, this is an old cop adage. If YOU YOURSELF have really had a 3 year old die in your arms because of a drunk driver, I’m sure it made the news, so please be so kind as to post the link
DJ LawmanMarch 4, 2013 1:49 pm
Kevin, You tell me what you think I should have said? Really? I read the article that s posted and found it smacks of the truth. You and others see us as a threat to your life. Fine we are is that what you want to hear? There you go we are. However, like the blogs writer I feel also that the 2nd amendment is very important for all of us. I feel just as offended and hurt when idiots in Washington want to take those rights away from us. I also do not fear the armed citizen and here in VA we enjoy open carry as well as concealed. I have often stopped citizens who open carry to see what they are carrying and to admire there weapon of choice. I also feel that civilians should be as armed at the very least as heavily as their policing force. I can honsestly say I have never conducted a illegal or improper search and seizure except once when I first joined the agency i am with now. My FTO who sounds alot like the author of the blog, correctly stepped on my head and told me to stop acting like a marine and think. I have always kept that in mind for that is who I am. I am not trying to dodge anything you might want to hear from me, BUT I am giving you my answer and I just can’t get it across to you that you would understand. I will say this though and I think it is how you might feel. My ex father in law said this to me after stopping by his house while i was on patrol. ” I respect WHO YOU ARE but I don’t respect WHAT YOU ARE. That pissed me off and I didn’t talk to him for over a year after that. But I started to notice why and what makes him think that. I.e. the officer tucked away in the woods drinking and then making dui arrests. Or framing a 18 year old kid for unlawful carnal knowledge testifying on the stand about his investigation that could not have possibly happened. There are those of us out there like that. I am not one of them.
The next question I will get I know is well if you knew of this what did you do about it.
The first drinking cop making DUI arrests was before my time but he was killed in a head on with a drunk driver. They were both drunk Ironic. The second police officer was reported to Professional Standards. He was fired and the 18 year old had the charges dropped.
I was one of 3 officers that had knowledge of what had happened and were not going to let him ruin a kid life. I am not with that agency anymore.
Im done with all of this. Time to move on to something else. Going back to read my Hardyville Tales and drink a beer…
Kevin3%March 4, 2013 2:17 pm
DJ:
Tahn posted a very good comment about the difference between Mala in se and Mala prohibita laws. Do you even understand the difference?
If you do, if any one of your fellow enforcers know and understood the difference and you truly believe in the Constitution and that you accept that your oath to uphold and defend it from all enemies foreign and domestic then, I would say the best and most honest course of action for all of you would be to get out of the enforcement business, NOW!
Waiting until you can collect pension, waiting to see if things are going to change are not sufficient or acceptable responses, in my view. You either don’t understand your oath or you have not read nor do you understand the explicit wording of the Constitution. I refuse to respect the assumed “authority” of anyone who will not step up today and take that bold move. It will not be easy, but you step up now, because there is a shit storm brewing and you will not be able to change your mind later. You will “just follow orders” like a good little foot soldier for the state.
Did you read the link I posted in my first response to you? Choose this day whom shall you serve. You can not serve two masters! If you are an enforcer then, you are serving the wrong master. Enforcing unjust laws is wrong. The time to choose is today.
Voltaire said: “It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.”
I was planning on not posting anything else but damn Keven and others won’t just let it drop..
It is assholes like THIS
Steven Boyce’s blood alcohol of registered a .27 was probably a big factor as well.
These latest charges of of involuntary manslaughter, driving under the influence and underage possession of alcohol should come as no surprise to the people that knew Boyce, as the dumbass seemed to be working his way up to them over the last year or so.
In February of 2010 he was charged with obstructing justice. In May 2010, he pled guilty to disorderly conduct and public swearing and intoxication. In July 2010, he pled guilty to possession with intent to distribute marijuana and underage possession of alcohol. In April 2011, he was charged with purchasing alcohol underage. Then in June 2011, he was charged with possession of marijuana again.
His bond hearing was cancelled because he remains in the hospital. In the meantime, I’m sure there a lot of useful things he could be doing to help repay the community what he took…like fueling a tire fire or something.
But good ole Steve was persecuted by us evil badge wearing thugs…
(Mala prohibita) My ass!
Kevin3%March 4, 2013 6:23 pm
Keep patting yourself on the back, DJ.
In this sad tragedy it seems all you did was fill out the paperwork after the fact and none of this has anything to do with your original callous comment about the Davidians “brought it on themselves”. That is subterfuge plain and simple.
You really should find another line of work.
DJ LawmanMarch 4, 2013 7:21 pm
I’ts ok kevin you keep on hating… It will eventually lead to a heart attack or a stroke and that is a genuine Callous comment from the bottom of my heart!
DJ LawmanMarch 5, 2013 1:12 am
Kevin, I have to say that I let you get to me with your last comment. And I of course made that callous comment… My original comment was wrong and I have already apologized for it. So sir cut me some slack. I have listened to you and others and I genuinely appreciate your heart felt opinions. I however enjoy my line of work just as sure as you enjoy yours. I do a lot of good out there. So Yes I will pat myself on the back… I will not stoop to your baiting or that of a few others on here. Let’s just say we agree to disagree A LOT! With you and others it can be only point and counter point, And as with our failing government; we can never see quite eye to eye. So with this I will say enough is enough and continue reading my Hardyville tails while shooting radar trying fill the coffers… That would be your interpretation, not mine
MikeMarch 5, 2013 1:30 am
This discussion reminds me of another author on this website that blindly defends the police, stateing we need to wait until ALL the evidence is examined, then in the next Breath condems the guy the police were after on the most specious evidence!
I don’t hate the Police or politicians, but they both seem to be TOO full of garbage. Like DJ making statements, then backtrack when he gets villified. Then lashes out when shown what a twit he is. I’m disgusted to call him a Marine, but there were a lot of twits like him in there.
DJ, this Janus mask of yours is very much like the rest of the Bad apples! Don’t break your arm patting yourself on the back!
Kevin3%March 5, 2013 3:07 am
On April 19th, 1993.
It was approaching the lunch hour and I was servicing the draft system in a tavern in Seattle, Washington when the cheering began. I looked up to see a CNN live report being broadcast from Waco, Texas. There was a U. S. Military tank ramming into the building and knocking down the walls. The Branch Davidian church had just burst into flames. The images on the TV screen were surreal. I struggled to process the fact that this was not happening in some far off dictatorship. It was happening in America and being televised live. I remembered the news reports had indicated that there were still many women and children inside that building!
Among the exuberant comments from people at the bar was one that struck me to my core. A young man, I estimated to be about 35 years old said, “They should have handled this problem weeks ago.” My draw dropped. I was appalled. I turned to the outspoken one who had exclaimed that he approved of the government’s actions and I said, “I hope when they come to your house, they exercise a little more restraint.” He just stared at me. It was clear that my comment was over his head.
The names of the deceased Davidians are:
1. Katherine Andrade, 24, American
2. Chanel Andrade, 1, American
3. Jennifer Andrade, 19, American
4. George Bennett, 35, British
5. Susan Benta, 31, British
6. Mary Jean Borst, 49, American
7. Pablo Cohen, 38, Israeli
8. Abedowalo Davies, 30, British
9. Shari Doyle, 18, American
10. Beverly Elliot, 30, British
11. Yvette Fagan, 32, British
12. Doris Fagan, 51, British
13. Lisa Marie Farris, 24, American
14. Raymond Friesen, 76, Canadian
15. Sandra Hardial, 27, British
16. Zilla Henry, 55, British
17. Vanessa Henry, 19, British
18. Phillip Henry, 22, British
19. Paulina Henry, 24, British
20. Stephen Henry, 26, British
21. Diana Henry, 28, British
22. Novellette Hipsman, 36, Canadian
23. Floyd Houtman, 61, American
24. Sherri Jewell, 43, American
25. David M. Jones, 38, American
26. David Koresh, 33, American
27. Rachel Koresh, 24, American
28. Cyrus Koresh, 8, American
29. Star Koresh, 6, American
30. Bobbie Lane Koresh, 2, American
31. Jeffery Little, 32, American
32. Nicole Gent Little, 24, Australian, pregnant
33. Dayland Gent, 3, American
34. Page Gent, 1, American
35. Livingston Malcolm, 26, British
36. Diane Martin, 41, British
37. Wayne Martin, Sr., 42, American
38. Lisa Martin, 13, American
39. Sheila Martin, Jr., 15, American
40. Anita Martin, 18, American
41. Wayne Martin, Jr., 20, American
42. Julliete Martinez, 30, American
43. Crystal Martinez, 3, American
44. Isaiah Martinez, 4, American
45. Joseph Martinez, 8, American
46. Abigail Martinez, 11, American
47. Audrey Martinez, 13, American
48. John-Mark McBean, 27, British
49. Bernadette Monbelly, 31, British
50. Rosemary Morrison, 29, British
51. Melissa Morrison, 6, British
52. Sonia Murray, 29, American
53. Theresa Nobrega, 48, British
54. James Riddle, 32, American
55. Rebecca Saipaia, 24, Filipino
56. Steve Schneider, 43, American
57. Judy Schneider, 41, American
58. Mayanah Schneider, 2, American
59. Clifford Sellors, 33, British
60. Scott Kojiro Sonobe, 35, American
61. Floracita Sonobe, 34, Filipino
62. Gregory Summers, 28, American
63. Aisha Gyrfas Summers, 17, Australian, pregnant
64. Startle Summers, 1, American
65. Lorraine Sylvia, 40, American
66. Rachel Sylvia, 12, American
67. Hollywood Sylvia, 1, American
68. Michelle Jones Thibodeau, 18, American
69. Serenity Jones, 4, American
70. Chica Jones, 2, American
71. Little One Jones, 2, American
72. Neal Vaega, 38, New Zealander
73. Margarida Vaega, 47, New Zealander
74. Mark H. Wendell, 40, American
18 children were burned to death in the raging fire. Various members of government, including BATF, FBI, President William J. Clinton, AG Janet Reno to this day claim their actions were justified. I ardently disagree! The actions of the federal government of the U.S. were horrific, deplorable and shameful to any nation that considers itself to be free.
Not one member of the government was ever held to account for what they did. Congress held hearings that resulted in no disciplinary actions against any state actors.
The actions of the federal government at Waco forever changed my view of this government. I pray that this type of egregious action never again rears its ugly head in my homeland. However, I feel that the multitude of law enforcement agencies throughout America learned nothing and will continue to overstep their lawful authority until one day, there will come a dreadful blow-back.
Old PrinterMarch 5, 2013 3:34 pm
until one day, there will come a dreadful blow-back.
You mean like Oklahoma City?
Jim KleinMarch 5, 2013 4:35 pm
“until one day, there will come a dreadful blow-back.
You mean like Oklahoma City?”
Nah, that was a few nutcases acting on their raging feelings, just like the Govco nutcases who attacked the Davidian nutcases.
See a pattern? The problem isn’t that there are nutcases–always will be, of course–but rather that some emotional nutcases operate under the color of Law…AND that a ton of non-nutcases pay for it.
It’s ALWAYS epistemology at root. You actually think you can string together some abstractions that will somehow “justify” the murder of innocent adults and children? Well, you can’t. You can justify it in your own mind, of course, but so did McVeigh.
Primacy of Consciousness versus Primacy of Existence.
The unlawful murder of innocent people can NEVER be justified in reality. To pretend it can be, is to make a mockery of the meaning of justification. Those people WERE innocent, particularly as a matter of Law. That’s all there is to it and the pretension that there could be some justification for their murder isn’t one drop different than any “justification” McVeigh or any other mass murderer could offer.
Sorry, but that’s how it IS. Now go live with it, if you call that living. Maybe you could help the knowledge base and tell us what it feels like, to think like McVeigh. You don’t like him because of WHO he murdered, but maybe the problem is THAT he murdered.
Kevin can speak for himself, but I’ll tell you what I think the “blow-back” will be. It’ll be when good, decent, honest people–like most who read this blog–decide that they simply won’t take it any longer. They get one life to live each, and they’re gettin’ tired of living it as slaves. And bad news for those who think like murderers and slave-owners…that’ll be the end of that.
Kevin3%March 5, 2013 5:02 pm
J. Klein has earned most rational commenter award! I respect his ability to articulate his position from a sound intellectual foundation. Bravo! Well done.
I will never initiate force upon anyone. Your slimy attempt to try and lump me in with the McVeigh of the world is a typical cheap shot, but as J. Klein has pointed out, it reveals your mindset. You think that some murder is “justifiable”. I bet you are comfortable with water boarding and drone strikes too. That is a horrible world to live in and clearly reason has not persuaded you to disavow any of it….sick and sad.
Another point worthy of highlighting; The FBI knew of the plot to bomb OKC/Murrah building and they chose to allow it. Why would that be?
As I have stated before, don’t be surprised when the goon squads come for you.
ClaireMarch 5, 2013 6:54 pm
This is a damn good discussion and I don’t want to interfere with it. But just a reminder: please don’t cross the line into insults or name-calling. ‘Kay?
In the 20 years since that awful day, law enforcers of every stripe have grown more aggressive and become more well armed. Every little podunk town across the land now has a SWAT team. Like the little boy with the hammer who thinks that everything is a nail, these goons continue to find new and creative ways to use their tools of oppression. Law enforcers learned one big thing from Waco. You may lie, maim and murder and get away with it all in the name of “officer safety”.
Shame on every thug with a badge and all who are employed in the field of “enforcement”.
I found this to be timely: http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/fire-overlooked-threat?utm_source=freelist-f&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20130228&utm_term=sweekly&utm_content=readmore&elq=92fb370789a04de2a84a1419c55ff688
Fire and smoke are timeless weapons, and ones that can be used to eliminate both people and evidence. Plausable deniability is another benefit.
Probably a good idea to have more than two fire extinguishers on hand, and the best smoke detector you can afford.
There are two links at the bottom of the article that are also relevant. One has a short video about smoke hoods.
CS “gas” uses methylene chloride (ME) as a common carrying agent – I know, I dealt with environmental cleanups at military bases where the stuff was used in significant quantities for training. ME is in turn, HIGHLY flammable. The fact that the f-ers in the government claimed then (as now) that CS is non-flammable is a pathetic joke. Even more pathetic, the news media is too incompetent and lazy to even look-up the MSDS sheets for the stuff to see for themselves.
The Davidians were murdered, which was payback for not rolling over like good doggies when the thick-necked ATF thugs poured in and started shooting.
And they got away with it. Just like Ruby Ridge, just like Fast and Furious, and just like their next soon-to-be-determined “enforcement action” against law abiding citizens who don’t “fit” the mold but DO fit the government’s agenda.
I do understand your point of view folks, but as a law enforcement officer of 10 plus years and a retired marine. I take offense to as Keven 3% statement, “Shame on every thug with a badge and all who are employed in the field of “enforcement” That stings and every time I hear that it is usually from some punk thug who I have just arrested for beating the crap out of his (Insert Herer) Girlfriend, Wife, Mother,Aunt. Of the drunk driver that just survived a head on with a family of four and I had to peel a 3 year old girl out of the wreck, just to have her die in my arms. I could go on and on about my carrer in both the marines and law enforcement. But I won’t but I will say this. The branch divids brought it on themselves
How?
DJ Lawman said, “The branch divids brought it on themselves”
SR asked, “How?”
Woody says, By not being sufficiently obsequious to the government thugs. There is only one acceptable attitude to law enforcement. That being complete submission.
I never thought the women and children that died in the final fire brought it on themselves.
It was a case of the Clinton administration, through DOJ and Janet Reno wanting to show theat they could be tough on “crime.” They picked a target that was easy to marginalize (splinter sect of a religion that isn’t politically powerful). They were also physically separate so raiding their home would cut down on potential collateral damage.
Also never explained is why branch davidians that were not present in Waco were rounded up and held for questioning and pending charges. Was it because the government wanted them intimidated enough so they would seek answers?
DJ Lawman wrote:
‘The branch divids brought it on themselves’
You almost had me sympathetic to your point of view, right up to the end, when your true nature was revealed.
Sir, you are the enemy.
DJ Lawman,
Your comment reinforces my position. You should be ashamed but you are too busy patting yourself on the back for your thuggery.
“brought it upon themselves” is the standard of you and your fellow goons. Apparently, this is what soothes your conscience (assuming you have one). 18 children burned to death in that place! FUCK YOU! They most certainly did not bring their deaths upon themselves.
Once upon a time in America, we had peace officers. Now we have “Law Enforcers”. Too many laws and too many goons being paid to enforce them.
Go read this:
http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/2010/02/choose-this-day-whom-you-will-serve.html
Military tactics have no place in the realm of civilian police work, but you and your goons feed on that adrenaline rush. You wish for a nation in which little badge and boot-lickers will grovel before you. I’d rather die than ever submit to your ilk.
Look in the mirror and know that you are a traitor to your oath and nothing more than what you claim to abhor. You just can’t seem to wrap your head around that because of the mutual admiration society your belong to.
You belong to a gang with badges. Thuggery is thuggery no matter what colors you wear.
I was with you until the last sentence, DJ. Thanks for making the rest of us look like baby burners. Have you done any homework on the subject at hand (acknowledging that most of today’s LEO and mil were in high school or below at the time of the slaughter) , or are you one of those “Anything for a paycheck” types?
I’m with A.G. I would have the utmost respect for people who put their lives on the line to clean up society’s dirtiest messes and to protect their fellow man. But DJ, your glib (and heartless) assumption that the Branch Davidians “brought it on themselves” and therefore deserve what they got reveals that you not only haven’t bothered to look into the events, but that you also don’t actually give one bit of a damn about your fellow humans. Or their rights.
Ironic you would say that DJ – “they brought it on themselves”. It’s a lot like what those wife beaters would probably say when you arrested them, no?
DJ EnforcerThug- “That stings and every time I hear that it is usually from some punk thug who I have just arrested for beating the crap out of his (Insert Herer [sic]) Girlfriend, Wife, Mother,Aunt…. Of [sic] the drunk driver that just survived a head on with a family of four…”
I say that all the time and have NEVER beat anyone (not even those who deserved it), nor had a drunk driving wreck. I’ve never even been “arrested” (kidnapped)- although it may happen someday as the LEOs get more and more out of control and evil. Yep, the bad apples truly do make the other .00001% look bad. Thanks for proving that point better than any liberty-lover could have ever done.
DJ Lawman has it right. Vernon Howell, aka David Koresh, was no hero. So many people who are pro-freedom have made the Davidians into martyrs, and it sickens me. Koresh was no better than the Rev. Jim Jones of the Peoples Temple massacre fame. Two-hundred innocent children were murdered by that monster –
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones
– while Koresh was directly responsible for the murders of 23 children, and the child rape of dozens. What both of them had in common was an irrational belief in end days garbage. Jones thought a nuclear holocaust would bring about a communist nirvana, while Koresh professed a belief in the end days prophecy of the Book of Revelation. Both of them were murdering sociopaths.
For 20 years my neighbor here in California was one of the founders of the the Shepard’s Rod, later called the Branch Davidians. His name is Cecil Helman. He is past 90 now and suffering from old age dementia but was at the right hand of Victor Houteff, the Davidian founder and prophet. He made the 11th Hour Clock mosaic laid in the entrance of the original Mt. Carmel in Waco. It is referred to as the “Helman Clock” and is still there.
“The best known Davidian artifact is a clock, set in the floor of the central building of Old Mount Carmel, with the hands set near the eleventh hour, indicating that the end of time is near. This physical reminder of the end of time captures perfectly the essence of the Davidians and Branch Davidians.”
http://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/ird01
Helman and others who got out before the Rodens and Koresh knew where to put the blame.
I will grant that the FBI was complicit in the murders. But the truly responsible person was Vernon Howell. May he rot in hell.
“The branch divids brought it on themselves”
I can’t believe you wrote that. I don’t stun too easily, but that one stunned me.
It’s absolutely disgusting to imply such a thing. The only thing even remotely like “charges” was about child abuse, and the State had ALREADY completed an investigation and CLEARED the group.
Those people were INTENTIONALLY incinerated, and they DID NOT “bring it on themselves.” You can tell by seeing who went to attack whom, where…and then what happened. Doing it while announcing, “This is not an attack” was just an ironic way of admitting how intentional it was.
Never mind that this entire country was founded for the particular purpose that people should be able to pray and believe as they wish. I’ve seen a lot of bullshit in my day, but that sentence right there ranks right up there with the worst of it.
I’d suggest you completely retract the sentence, just as quickly as your conscience allows. Forget about how others feel about you—this is the sort of thing that causes disease, and fast. That’s why it’s called dis-ease.
You either didn’t mean what you wrote, didn’t understand what you wrote, or are living in another world and won’t survive this one long.
The only thing even remotely like “charges” was about child abuse, and the State had ALREADY completed an investigation and CLEARED the group.
This is not true. Koresh wasn’t charged because Texas law allows marriage at 14 and the Davidians under his spell lied through there teeth to either protect him or more likely out of fear for the children. Koresh was having sex with multiple 13 and 14 year old girls, supposedly with parental consent. Unless polygamy is also legal in Texas, he was raping them, and producing bastard children, with children.
The best account of this tragedy is here:
http://www.rickross.com/reference/waco/waco295.html
There is plenty of blame attached to the FBI, but the fact is that under Koresh the Davidians had become a suicidal dooms day cult.
WHAT’S not true, OP? Was there an investigation by the State? Were ANY charges brought? If there were, then set ’em out. If there weren’t, then it’s TRUE that they were “cleared by the State.”
I don’t give a hoot what sort of nitwits the Davidians were. In this country, you’re allowed to be a nitwit and religious nitwits are both specifically protected and have a special place in the founding of this country.
That’s all. You see, I understand that if the rational are to be free, then the irrational must be free too.
“But the truly responsible person was Vernon Howell.”
I hope you understand that shoddy thinking like this, is what brought us to where we are.
“Responsible”…FOR WHAT??? Koresh was responsible for whatever HE did. His murderers were responsible for what THEY did. How tough is that to understand?
Now go look who attacked whom, and who incinerated whom. And here you are, using the oh-so-common fallacy of ad hominem to distract, as if Koresh’s badness can somehow alleviate the responsibility of his murderers.
Next you’ll be telling us that it’s Koresh’s fault that you can’t see plain reality.
I guess that if you follow a loonie you deserve to be roasted alive by the government. I guess that killing kids equals saving them from abuse. According to some people…. Goodness, I hope I never get victimized by anyone to give thugs an excuse to murder me for my own good!
I understand the, in my opinion, misplaced sympathy for the Davidians. I’ve spent hours listening to Cecil Helman recount his youth at the original Mount Carmel. During The Depression they were a self-sufficient compound, which in some ways mimics the preppers of today. But they were not a heavily armed cult of child molesters. They had a school on site that taught practical skills. Cecil learned carpentry and plastering as well as finish concrete work. Even as an old man he plastered the house built next door to me, and built a stone and concrete water box also finish plastered.
When his wife Nancy died he made her wood coffin and with the help of neighbors buried her in the local cemetery, without government involvement.
Like the Davidians at the original Mt. Carmel, they planted fruit trees, always had a garden and canned for winter, and bought goat milk from another neighbor.
He believed that David Koresh, and the Rodens before him, were false prophets. He kept in touch with Davidians spread all over the country who felt the same way.
The problem is that people have been conned into believing that Koresh and his cult were like the original Davidians. They were not. Koresh gained control of the new Mt. Carmel property at gun point. Attempted murder charges were brought against him because he tried to kill George Roden who was the son of Lois Roden, the then “owner” of the property. George Roden was running a meth lab out of the place. Koresh, like Jim Jones, was a charismatic leader who began stock piling weapons. His actions speak of paranoia, big time. The events he envisioned, and the actions he took to achieve it, became a very tragic self-fulling prophecy.
One question for all you defenders of the Koresh Cult. The true Branch Davidians were an offshoot of the 7th Day Adventist Church. They are vegetarians and do not hunt game or raise livestock that is butchered. They have been given conscientious objector status in the military because they ALL believe that killing another human being, for whatever reason, is against God’s law. None of them to my knowledge even own weapons for self-defense.
So then why did Koresh arm Mt. Carmel like a military compound?
Jim Klein said: “I don’t give a hoot what sort of nitwits the Davidians were. In this country, you’re allowed to be a nitwit and religious nitwits are both specifically protected and have a special place in the founding of this country.
“That’s all. You see, I understand that if the rational are to be free, then the irrational must be free too.”
I thank you for making that point.
The idea that a person’s/group’s odd religious beliefs should be grounds for persecution, alienation, and demon-ization is just wrong. This is something that is lost on those who attempt to justify the wrongful action of the fedgov.
Furthermore, allegations of child abuse, rape or inappropriate contact with minors do not come under the jurisdiction of the ATF. Not now and not in 1993.
What I have noticed in the 20 years of arguing with statists about how right they believe the fedgoons were, is that there is no reasoning with them. Constitutional protections of due process are not relevant in their twisted minds. Obey the commands of the jack-booted thugs or you will suffer their wrath, up to and including murder by arson.
An insider view by one of the few surviving members of the Davidians is titled: A PLACE CALLED WACO http://www.amazon.com/Place-Called-Waco-Survivors-Story/dp/1891620428
In my opinion, Koresh and his followers held some very odd beliefs. It does not follow that I think the fedgov should murder them because of those beliefs. Nor should they have been denied due process.
It is also quite clear that the apologists for government heavy-handedness are okay with U.S. Military engaging in a civilian police action.
All you boot-lickers will go on believing the propaganda of the state sponsored murderers. It does not matter what anyone says. Enjoy your chains and servitude. Don’t be surprised when one day you are labeled as being odd and worthy of annihilation.
First I would like to say that my comment was incomplete and incorrect. The children surly did not deser ve to die nor the women. However, koresh was a psyco and at the very least deserved to be take. Alive and tried. With that being said when waco went down I was a marine. Not law enforcement. And way back then I thought the davidions were nuts. But what I believed then and now is a real man/men dont put women and children in harms way period! You can call me chivalrous or not. But that was not their fight. Koresh was a coward end of story! He was just as responsible as the govt for their deaths. In my book more so. But hey you can call me a thug/ tyrant/goon what ever. It doesnt effect me. Because those that use that language are self absorbed/ ignorant as to what I /we do. But when someones in need of my help I’m there at the head of the line. I am willing to put it all on the line for those that need me. Even those that dont know or like me.
I have to wonder why thugs and trolls bother to come to a place like this. Claims that any of the men, women, or children murdered by the government “deserved it” or “brought it on themselves” are defense of summary execution. Period. Now the emperor claims that power, but in truth the thugs have been exercising it regularly for decades.
I’m not surprised that there are thugs; I’m only surprised to find them here. Whenever a thug starts whining about the little kids they claim to have saved once upon a time, I think about a serial rapist who spends every Sunday helping little old ladies cross the street. He’s still a rapist. His occasional good deed does not erase the enormity of his evil.
A thug is a thug, changing the costume doesn’t change the nature of the evil. The status of whomever issues the paycheck doesn’t change the morality of the actions. Busting heads for the man, shooting nursing mothers in the head, or beating up protesters is part of the job. The job of being paid to hurt people. That is the definition of thug.
As for the troll, I don’t feed them. This one isn’t coherent enough to be entertaining.
Jim Klein you are right that the government was way out of bounds at Waco. But what they did amounted to “suicide by cop” because of the actions of Koresh. I’m not excusing the ATF or Janet Reno from their role in it. As I wrote above, they were complicit in the murders.
But please stop making this cult out to be martyrs. They were feeding little girls to a child molester. What’s to say that God allowed this to happen because of that?
You’re right -S, or is it Claire? I swore off a year ago. Should have known better than try to talk common sense to close-minded gun nuts. Bye.
Old Printer Says:
March 2nd, 2013
Jim Klein you are right that the government was way out of bounds at Waco. But what they did amounted to “suicide by cop” because of the actions of Koresh. I’m not excusing the ATF or Janet Reno from their role in it. As I wrote above, they were complicit in the murders.
But please stop making this cult out to be martyrs. They were feeding little girls to a child molester. What’s to say that God allowed this to happen because of that?
——— You really don’t get it do you. The fact that a child’s parents may be abusive, or criminal or religious wackos does not mean the children should be murdered by the state. If you cannot understand that very basic point there is absolutly no hope for you. That the ATF and the FBI would willingly assault a plywood building using everything including armoured vehicles whilst those children were in there beggars belief. You actually think that this equates to suicide by cop? Do the cops in your neighbourhood usually gun down the children of suspects then?
Using your principles Obama could merrily nuke most of the middle east because they’re religious nutjobs and therefore their children deserve to die anyhow!!
It just does not matter if Koresh was good or bad, if the Davidians were on the up and up or not. None of that is the central issue. The facts seem to be that the ATF raided the “compound”, and had it televised for the PR value, and the raid went south. After waiting a whole 51 days, Reno, and Clintoon raided the joint, and burned it to the ground. They shot people that tried to escape the fire…. I heard a lot of stuff during that event, allegations of child abuse, manufacturing machine guns, and so on. All of those were handed out by the government. I frankly don’t believe a damn thing they say. The same thing applies to al Awlawki and the drone strikes. If the Feral Government has evidence, then TRY them. Even in absentia, bring the evidence out in public, but don’t just feed me a line, and expect me to believe it anymore. Check out “copsproduction” blog for some current Waco info.
For anyone who thinks that there was ANY excuse for the gutless sons of bitches who murdered the innocents at Waco, then posed with the flames and smoke in the background because they were so proud of their work, fuck you. For any cop here who defends the bastards actions, please do the world a favor and rinse your mouth out with a 12 gauge. The fact is that Koresh went into the same little place in town every day and went unarmed. Anyone with two brain cells could have arrested him without incident. That is the simple fact. But the cowards with their TWAT gear and armored vehicles got such a hard-on at the thought of slaughtering a whole compound of people and getting away with it, they didn’t want to do the easy and safe way. I’m sure they still have wet dreams thinking about the screams and the smell of burning flesh. Perverts get off that way. As for the too-few gov thugs who bit the dust, I piss on their graves. They were traitors to the oath and to humanity.
“I am willing to put it all on the line for those that need me. Even those that dont know or like me.”
Thank you, DJ Lawman, for your service in defending this country, and the risks you currently take everyday.
The current sheriff of Pacific County, Washington is a former Washington State Trooper who was ambushed and shot in the head twice at close range while on duty. He still carries bullet fragments in his skull, and ringing in his ears from the assault a few years ago. I don’t know about his dreams or nightmares. He doesn’t talk much about that. But I guess he’s just another thug, right? You people make me sick.
“That the ATF and the FBI would willingly assault a plywood building using everything including armoured vehicles whilst those children were in there beggars belief.”
My thing is epistemology. Yours may be an interesting statement about what does or does not beggar your belief, but you have fully succumbed to thousands of years of philosophical monstrosity.
Yes, succumbed. Sorry about that but since it’s a mind, you get to bring it back to life again. And this isn’t about you; it’s about how you’re thinking. Worry not, you’re far from alone. Duh, that’s why you all do it.
Please, understand…reality is how it is. That’s what “fact” means; it’s how reality IS. So no matter your beliefs, nor your justifications based on those beliefs, the reality of it–the FACT of the matter–is that the ATF and FBI did indeed “assault a plywood building using everything including armoured vehicles whilst those children were in there.” Yes, THEY DID. That is, IT HAPPENED. Now look what you’re arguing IN FAVOR of, wholly because something “beggars” your belief. Stop and THINK—you’re figuring out why it could possibly be okay to forcefully attack and then cause the incineration of human beings. INCLUDING THE CHILDREN.
I mean, damn…why not go back to the Earth being flat? If I had more time, it might be fun reading how everyone looks to the Davidians to explain the actions of those government employees, as if the evil of the Davidians could possibly equal the incineration of all those people.
So lemme guess…just as soon as someone judges me to be a rotten person, they get to come and slaughter me? Is that the lesson here? Or is the lesson that YOU shouldn’t be paying for all this?
Now this is when we get to hear, “But everyone’s paying for it, and THAT principle is more important than children being incinerated.”
Alright, go for it. That’s what you’re saying—not you personally, but anyone who says the Davidians “had it coming” or anything crazy like that. Go ahead, explain away—explain exactly which higher cause was accomplished by burning those folk away.
“The current sheriff of Pacific County, Washington is a former Washington State Trooper who was ambushed and shot in the head twice at close range while on duty. He still carries bullet fragments in his skull, and ringing in his ears from the assault a few years ago. I don’t know about his dreams or nightmares. He doesn’t talk much about that. But I guess he’s just another thug, right?”
Don’t you get it? He is if he is, isn’t if he isn’t. HE’S HIM.
Now look at yourself. You’re offering WOUNDS as some sort of proof that something is GOOD. Wounded or not, he’s either a thug or not. Is that really so tough to understand?
“You people make me sick.”
See, there you go with exactly the same error. Other people DID NOT make you how you are. Believe as you want, but that’s the reality of it. Personally I think we’re much happier going along with the reality around us, but that’s me.
The current sheriff of Pacific County, Washington, is also an avid drug warrior who campaigned on the position that asset forfeiture (without due process) should be used more enthusiastically to fund cop-ops and other government functions.
Without due process? Rookies…here in Michigan they used to do it without charges.
Jim Klein. I think you misunderstand me. I know they did so what I mean is that it is….surreal maybe a better word that members of law enforcement of a supposedly democratic country would commit such an act and that the perpetrators of such an act are not, at least, imprisoned for the rest of their lives. The fact that there is extensive forensic evidence, witnesses and TV footage to be used at trial makes it even more distressing. At Nuremberg convictions were secured with less and the murderers justly punished.
What amazes me about those in the “brought it upon themselves” camp is the fact that they try to assert that anyone who is/was appalled by the government’s actions at Waco is somehow a supporter of Koresh and his silly beliefs. That is a classic non-sequitur.
So, let me try to explain. What those who argue against such actions are arguing in favor of:
#1- The right of the people to be secure from unreasonable searches and seizures.
#2- That every man, woman and child should be afforded due process at law.
#3- That self defense is a basic human right.
#4- That innocence is presumed to exist until and unless it has been proven in a court of law that one is guilty.
#5- That the use of Military personnel and equipment is strictly forbidden in civilian policing.
#6- That the aforementioned are fundamental tenets secured by the Supreme Law of the Land -The U.S. Constitution and therefore must be obeyed by state actors.
#7- That there should be some level of accountability for perpetrators of government’s wrongful actions.
Well said, Kevin3%. Well said. I’ve been trying to find a way to articulate all that since yesterday; you did it better than I ever could.
Thanks, Claire.
I hold you in very high regard and your comment truly means a lot to me.
Sadly, my frustration and serious depression about the issue interfered with my ability to articulate it in that manner, for 20 years! The events at Waco shook me to my core and drove me into a terrible despair. I fear for my children (who were at the time 8 and 3 years old) and the future state of Amerika that they will live in.
I do not suppose it will change the mind of one single thug apologist. I can only hope that new comers to the subject may learn something from it.
Ok then, I see that I’m the bad guy. That’s fine… we all know where each other stand… Claire I love who you are and what you do and stand for be leave it or not. And I respect you opinion and everyone else also. I don’t agree with a lot of the arguments made but that is my right and my opinion. To those of you who think that if you are law enforcement you are automatically bad. Ie kevin 3%, Jim Klien. I would never be able to get through to you no matter how much I talked. So I won’t try. needless to say your more part of the problem then you think. Thank you Old Printer for your support. I do it for you as well as the rest. I hope you all have a good week.
Kevin 3%, very eloquently put and spot on. D J Lawman if you cannot agree with his last but one post I dearly hope you are considering changing career. Far to much law enforcement worldwide finds civil rights to be unconveinient and are willing to ride roughshod over them if they can. Koresh and his followers may have been loons of the first order but they still had rights under the BOR and the constitution!
DJLawman, I would love to hear your response to the 7 items in Keven3%’s post. Please give us a chance to understand your stance on those issues and how they bear on your opinion of the Branch Davidian’s treatment by the government.
DJLawman — I thank you for your personal graciousness. And I second Woody. I would be very interested to hear you (and Old Printer) respond point-by-point to Kevin3%’s list.
“Far to much law enforcement worldwide finds civil rights to be unconveinient…”
Well said, and it screams the question: “Too inconvenient…for WHAT?”
What the hell is trying to be accomplished, that this could possibly be justified? That’s why I asked, “…explain exactly which higher cause was accomplished by burning those folk away.”
What the hell is trying to be accomplished, that this could possibly be justified? That’s why I asked, “…explain exactly which higher cause was accomplished by burning those folk away.”
I posit that the entire stand-off became an affront to the collective ego of some very small-minded individuals. It is unfathomable to many (maybe most) in Law “Enforcement” that they could be challenged in such a brazen and direct manner. They had never in their careers felt so powerless. It was embarrassing for them to be there with all of their equipment and well trained “negotiators” and to be rebuffed for their arrogance. That hurt their overblown sense of self.
They tried, brute force and it did not work. They tried bullying with the tanks crushing the cars and children’s toys. They tried psycho manipulation with the torturous loud music and recordings of screaming animals. They tried sleep deprivation. They tried lies and manipulation of every kind. None of it worked and that pissed them off. Well then, the esteemed FBI could not allow this to go on. No one does that to the greatest Law “Enforcement” agency in the world and gets away with it! They were going to show who was the master in this relationship…..even if it meant they needed to kill everyone of the “enemy”.
To my mind, this highlights the utter depravity of many who choose to enforce laws upon others. It is about control and dominance and power. It is about group-think, the ultimate us-versus-them mindset that is so prevalent in law “enforcement”. It is a sickness in our culture and sicker still that the American people accepted it, tolerated it and swallowed the lie.
What could have possibly been the down-side of just waiting the Davidians out? Answer: The loss of face that would be suffered by the fedgoons.
Shame on them! If there is a hell, I hope there is an especially hot place in it for these cretins.
DJ Lawman,
It is important for all of us to consider the thoughts and actions of ourselves and others but I believe we can only do so through the correct understanding of terms.
When you speak of helping broken humans on the highways, of stopping rapists and thieves, of charging to the sound of guns to stand between perps and victims, I salute you. And I am sure that most, if not all who follow Claire would agree with me, although I am certainly only speaking for myself. As Claire has explained in her writings, this is enforcing Mala in se, the laws against evil. Murder, rape, robbery, kidnapping, arson etc. Most on the planet agree these acts are evil. Thank you for your service in these regards. We think of the guardians of these basic laws against evil as Peace Officers who enforce the rule of law.
However there is and always has been, a tendency for those in power to create rules of prohibition (Mala prohibita). Rules which enforce concepts that the power in charge wishes according to their own beliefs and dogma. You must wear a turban, can’t smoke pot, women must cover their bodies, you can’t buy beer on Sunday, can’t have weapons or can’t keep them concealed. Laws and rules in which there is no victim. We now have in in our land, thousands upon thousands of these rules and they are expanding.
This is the Law of Rules. These are enforced by LEO’s. Law enforcement officers or more properly, Rule Enforcement Officers. Regardless of the ideals and beliefs of the enforcers, they are violating Mala in se, in order to enforce their rules. They violate the Law against evil to enforce petty dictates of the controllers. This is evil and why you have received the disdain of many on the forum, aside from your ill considered remark, which you have apologized for.
You are naturally hurt and defensive believing we refer to your peace officer activities. Not so. We refer to your role as an enforcer of the rules, violating the laws against evil to do so.
The founders had thought that they had a method to limit the law of rules, at least concerning the basic rights of mankind as they saw them. It is called the bill of rights, not the bill of permissions. Every judicial officer in the country is required to take an oath to protect the Constitution and Bill of Rights. I assume that you did so twice, as military and as a police officer, although I have learned that many officers take a union oath instead. If I might ask, which oath did you take?
If your oath was to protect the Constitution, how can you make an arrest for any weapons violations or drug crime or underage drinking or any other rule they come up with, where there is no victim, except the State (in their mind). If you have never bothered or arrested a person who carried a concealed weapon, had drugs or booze or any other mala prohibita, I Sir, Salute You.
If you have enforced these rules and violated the laws against evil to do so (through kidnapping and armed force), how do you reconcile this with your Oath of Duty to the Constitution?
I also agree with Claire and Kevin3%, I would be very interested in your answers to his questions.
Thank you DJ Lawman for participating in this dialog. The only way to peace is through understanding .
Tahn
Claire and Kevin3%:
I can’t disagree with any of the points made. They are rational and spot on, especially the last one concerning accountability, also the militarizing of local police. You made your case eloquently.
But…what this boils down to for me is that while I know the ATF, Janet Reno and the FBI acted way out of bounds at Waco, there was culpability in the extreme on the part of Vernon Howell. That is also what DJ Lawman, and a lot of other well meaning people believe. It is also why I spilled the story of personal involvement with some of the original Davidians who abandoned Mt Carmel after their prophet/founder died, in an effort to show the difference between the real Davidians, and the cult that Howell/Koresh assembled.
It’s one thing to condemn unlawful actions of the AFT at Waco, or the FBI at Ruby Ridge, or even question the siege and torching of the Symbionese Liberation Army in LA http://wikimapia.org/1669801/Symbionese-Liberation-Army. It is another to paint law enforcement in general with the broad brush of thugs and murderers. They are a reflection of our increasingly disintegrating society where drugs like meth are turning kids into zombies who rob, steal, and kill. Cops are out on the front line dealing with a country falling apart.
Also Claire, I’m sorry to hear that Scott Johnson ran for election on the platform you mentioned. I’ve known him to be the ultimate professional, and a man who would give his life to protect a friend.
#1- The right of the people to be secure from unreasonable searches and seizures.
#2- That every man, woman and child should be afforded due process at law.
#3- That self defense is a basic human right.
#4- That innocence is presumed to exist until and unless it has been proven in a court of law that one is guilty.
#5- That the use of Military personnel and equipment is strictly forbidden in civilian policing.
#6- That the aforementioned are fundamental tenets secured by the Supreme Law of the Land -The U.S. Constitution and therefore must be obeyed by state actors.
#7- That there should be some level of accountability for perpetrators of government’s wrongful actions.
There is nothing in Keven’s 7 points that I or any other American would disagree with. Well maybe some… But for me Nothing. I do not find a persons civil rights to be inconvenient or trivial. Those very rights are mine also. Remember I served for 20 years to protect those rights that many of you here accuse me of violating. And you make these assumptions without even knowing me. When I must make an arrest I do not do it lightly. I know what is entailed and every case was taking seriously. But I stray… You all have your opinions as to what Waco is for you… I do not disagree that it should have been handled much differently. I was not there so as with many of you i can only second guess and assume. I do know that today it would be handled much differently. I do not condone the “burning those folks away” No one deserves to go out that way. But I will repeat that you do not know me so do not judge me because I wear a badge. I have never given less then 100 percent to the citizens of my city.
DJLawman, I’ll speak just for myself. I think it’s you doing the judging of yourself (as it always is for all of us), not others. I haven’t judged you…I don’t know you. But I can judge what you write, since I assume it’s what you believe.
You haven’t addressed the issues, because you can’t. You are offering that there could be some “other issue”–the rottenness of the Davidians, or who knows what–that might somehow trump the injustice of all those people being burned away. Never mind that it was all in violation of the law; never mind the insanity of playing the crazy music and announcing, “This is not an attack,” while attacking.
It’s not your guilt because you wear a uniform. It’s all of our guilt because we paid for it, and we didn’t stop them from doing it. But meanwhile, you’re here DEFENDING it, as if there could be some justification for it. This tells me that were you to find yourself in a similar situation, you’d justify your own actions similarly. Well okay, then stand up and say so—“If I come across some people who I think are bad, even if they’ve violated no law at all, then I will feel justified in murdering and/or incinerating them.”
But you won’t ‘fess up to that, will you? That’s the problem here, for everyone. There is a philosophical disjunct between the thought of the action and the action itself. It was the plain unlawful murder and incineration of INNOCENT–by law innocent, not necessarily morality–adults and children, and you’re here defending it. Do you seriously wonder why there’s mistrust on the part of those who pay for all this craziness?
Jim Klein, thank you for your clear analysis of groupthink as practiced by many in law enforcement (copthink?) As someone else pointed out, in order for a police officer to remain employed s/he must violate his/her oath on a regular basis. This must certainly create a lot of cognitive dissonance on the part of anyone who is not a sociopath. So it would seem that cops who aren’t sociopaths must come up with some way of self justifying their actions. Perhaps there is some connection in there somewhere to the high suicide rate among cops?
Woody and Jim Klein nailed it.
DJ and Old Printer never really retracted anything they said. They merely qualified their statements and they used the subterfuge of, “that stings”. In other words, they had their little feelings hurt by my comment. Tough shit!
NEWS FLASH: To DJ and Old P: My sensibilities were assaulted in 1993 when the fedgoons attacked, and subsequently murdered the people at Mt. Carmel. In the following years after those horrific events, I watched as government grew bigger and more vile.
My conclusion is that I do not trust anyone in the government, particularly those with the power to kill and maim.
“I’ve been a cop in Texas for almost 19 years.”
My life as a tyrant
“If you think our police are no threat to your freedom, you’re living in a fantasy world. ”
“I know now that cops like Joe have no problem violating people’s rights, as long as they have some “official” way to do it. ”
“That’s why we have a 2nd Amendment. And officers like me and Joe are why it shouldn’t be repealed.”
Well worth reading the entire post.
Of the drunk driver that just survived a head on with a family of four and I had
to peel a 3 year old girl out of the wreck, just to have her die in my arms.
DJ Lawman, this is an old cop adage. If YOU YOURSELF have really had a 3 year old die in your arms because of a drunk driver, I’m sure it made the news, so please be so kind as to post the link
Kevin, You tell me what you think I should have said? Really? I read the article that s posted and found it smacks of the truth. You and others see us as a threat to your life. Fine we are is that what you want to hear? There you go we are. However, like the blogs writer I feel also that the 2nd amendment is very important for all of us. I feel just as offended and hurt when idiots in Washington want to take those rights away from us. I also do not fear the armed citizen and here in VA we enjoy open carry as well as concealed. I have often stopped citizens who open carry to see what they are carrying and to admire there weapon of choice. I also feel that civilians should be as armed at the very least as heavily as their policing force. I can honsestly say I have never conducted a illegal or improper search and seizure except once when I first joined the agency i am with now. My FTO who sounds alot like the author of the blog, correctly stepped on my head and told me to stop acting like a marine and think. I have always kept that in mind for that is who I am. I am not trying to dodge anything you might want to hear from me, BUT I am giving you my answer and I just can’t get it across to you that you would understand. I will say this though and I think it is how you might feel. My ex father in law said this to me after stopping by his house while i was on patrol. ” I respect WHO YOU ARE but I don’t respect WHAT YOU ARE. That pissed me off and I didn’t talk to him for over a year after that. But I started to notice why and what makes him think that. I.e. the officer tucked away in the woods drinking and then making dui arrests. Or framing a 18 year old kid for unlawful carnal knowledge testifying on the stand about his investigation that could not have possibly happened. There are those of us out there like that. I am not one of them.
The next question I will get I know is well if you knew of this what did you do about it.
The first drinking cop making DUI arrests was before my time but he was killed in a head on with a drunk driver. They were both drunk Ironic. The second police officer was reported to Professional Standards. He was fired and the 18 year old had the charges dropped.
I was one of 3 officers that had knowledge of what had happened and were not going to let him ruin a kid life. I am not with that agency anymore.
Im done with all of this. Time to move on to something else. Going back to read my Hardyville Tales and drink a beer…
DJ:
Tahn posted a very good comment about the difference between Mala in se and Mala prohibita laws. Do you even understand the difference?
If you do, if any one of your fellow enforcers know and understood the difference and you truly believe in the Constitution and that you accept that your oath to uphold and defend it from all enemies foreign and domestic then, I would say the best and most honest course of action for all of you would be to get out of the enforcement business, NOW!
Waiting until you can collect pension, waiting to see if things are going to change are not sufficient or acceptable responses, in my view. You either don’t understand your oath or you have not read nor do you understand the explicit wording of the Constitution. I refuse to respect the assumed “authority” of anyone who will not step up today and take that bold move. It will not be easy, but you step up now, because there is a shit storm brewing and you will not be able to change your mind later. You will “just follow orders” like a good little foot soldier for the state.
Did you read the link I posted in my first response to you? Choose this day whom shall you serve. You can not serve two masters! If you are an enforcer then, you are serving the wrong master. Enforcing unjust laws is wrong. The time to choose is today.
Voltaire said: “It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.”
Think about it.
just waiting- heres your sign..
http://www.dreamindemon.com/2011/06/28/drunk-driver-kills-entire-virginia-family/
I was planning on not posting anything else but damn Keven and others won’t just let it drop..
It is assholes like THIS
Steven Boyce’s blood alcohol of registered a .27 was probably a big factor as well.
These latest charges of of involuntary manslaughter, driving under the influence and underage possession of alcohol should come as no surprise to the people that knew Boyce, as the dumbass seemed to be working his way up to them over the last year or so.
In February of 2010 he was charged with obstructing justice. In May 2010, he pled guilty to disorderly conduct and public swearing and intoxication. In July 2010, he pled guilty to possession with intent to distribute marijuana and underage possession of alcohol. In April 2011, he was charged with purchasing alcohol underage. Then in June 2011, he was charged with possession of marijuana again.
His bond hearing was cancelled because he remains in the hospital. In the meantime, I’m sure there a lot of useful things he could be doing to help repay the community what he took…like fueling a tire fire or something.
Read more: http://www.dreamindemon.com/2011/06/28/drunk-driver-kills-entire-virginia-family/#ixzz2McTGu8Pd
Under Creative Commons License: Attribution
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But good ole Steve was persecuted by us evil badge wearing thugs…
(Mala prohibita) My ass!
Keep patting yourself on the back, DJ.
In this sad tragedy it seems all you did was fill out the paperwork after the fact and none of this has anything to do with your original callous comment about the Davidians “brought it on themselves”. That is subterfuge plain and simple.
You really should find another line of work.
I’ts ok kevin you keep on hating… It will eventually lead to a heart attack or a stroke and that is a genuine Callous comment from the bottom of my heart!
Kevin, I have to say that I let you get to me with your last comment. And I of course made that callous comment… My original comment was wrong and I have already apologized for it. So sir cut me some slack. I have listened to you and others and I genuinely appreciate your heart felt opinions. I however enjoy my line of work just as sure as you enjoy yours. I do a lot of good out there. So Yes I will pat myself on the back… I will not stoop to your baiting or that of a few others on here. Let’s just say we agree to disagree A LOT! With you and others it can be only point and counter point, And as with our failing government; we can never see quite eye to eye. So with this I will say enough is enough and continue reading my Hardyville tails while shooting radar trying fill the coffers… That would be your interpretation, not mine
This discussion reminds me of another author on this website that blindly defends the police, stateing we need to wait until ALL the evidence is examined, then in the next Breath condems the guy the police were after on the most specious evidence!
I don’t hate the Police or politicians, but they both seem to be TOO full of garbage. Like DJ making statements, then backtrack when he gets villified. Then lashes out when shown what a twit he is. I’m disgusted to call him a Marine, but there were a lot of twits like him in there.
DJ, this Janus mask of yours is very much like the rest of the Bad apples! Don’t break your arm patting yourself on the back!
On April 19th, 1993.
It was approaching the lunch hour and I was servicing the draft system in a tavern in Seattle, Washington when the cheering began. I looked up to see a CNN live report being broadcast from Waco, Texas. There was a U. S. Military tank ramming into the building and knocking down the walls. The Branch Davidian church had just burst into flames. The images on the TV screen were surreal. I struggled to process the fact that this was not happening in some far off dictatorship. It was happening in America and being televised live. I remembered the news reports had indicated that there were still many women and children inside that building!
Among the exuberant comments from people at the bar was one that struck me to my core. A young man, I estimated to be about 35 years old said, “They should have handled this problem weeks ago.” My draw dropped. I was appalled. I turned to the outspoken one who had exclaimed that he approved of the government’s actions and I said, “I hope when they come to your house, they exercise a little more restraint.” He just stared at me. It was clear that my comment was over his head.
The names of the deceased Davidians are:
1. Katherine Andrade, 24, American
2. Chanel Andrade, 1, American
3. Jennifer Andrade, 19, American
4. George Bennett, 35, British
5. Susan Benta, 31, British
6. Mary Jean Borst, 49, American
7. Pablo Cohen, 38, Israeli
8. Abedowalo Davies, 30, British
9. Shari Doyle, 18, American
10. Beverly Elliot, 30, British
11. Yvette Fagan, 32, British
12. Doris Fagan, 51, British
13. Lisa Marie Farris, 24, American
14. Raymond Friesen, 76, Canadian
15. Sandra Hardial, 27, British
16. Zilla Henry, 55, British
17. Vanessa Henry, 19, British
18. Phillip Henry, 22, British
19. Paulina Henry, 24, British
20. Stephen Henry, 26, British
21. Diana Henry, 28, British
22. Novellette Hipsman, 36, Canadian
23. Floyd Houtman, 61, American
24. Sherri Jewell, 43, American
25. David M. Jones, 38, American
26. David Koresh, 33, American
27. Rachel Koresh, 24, American
28. Cyrus Koresh, 8, American
29. Star Koresh, 6, American
30. Bobbie Lane Koresh, 2, American
31. Jeffery Little, 32, American
32. Nicole Gent Little, 24, Australian, pregnant
33. Dayland Gent, 3, American
34. Page Gent, 1, American
35. Livingston Malcolm, 26, British
36. Diane Martin, 41, British
37. Wayne Martin, Sr., 42, American
38. Lisa Martin, 13, American
39. Sheila Martin, Jr., 15, American
40. Anita Martin, 18, American
41. Wayne Martin, Jr., 20, American
42. Julliete Martinez, 30, American
43. Crystal Martinez, 3, American
44. Isaiah Martinez, 4, American
45. Joseph Martinez, 8, American
46. Abigail Martinez, 11, American
47. Audrey Martinez, 13, American
48. John-Mark McBean, 27, British
49. Bernadette Monbelly, 31, British
50. Rosemary Morrison, 29, British
51. Melissa Morrison, 6, British
52. Sonia Murray, 29, American
53. Theresa Nobrega, 48, British
54. James Riddle, 32, American
55. Rebecca Saipaia, 24, Filipino
56. Steve Schneider, 43, American
57. Judy Schneider, 41, American
58. Mayanah Schneider, 2, American
59. Clifford Sellors, 33, British
60. Scott Kojiro Sonobe, 35, American
61. Floracita Sonobe, 34, Filipino
62. Gregory Summers, 28, American
63. Aisha Gyrfas Summers, 17, Australian, pregnant
64. Startle Summers, 1, American
65. Lorraine Sylvia, 40, American
66. Rachel Sylvia, 12, American
67. Hollywood Sylvia, 1, American
68. Michelle Jones Thibodeau, 18, American
69. Serenity Jones, 4, American
70. Chica Jones, 2, American
71. Little One Jones, 2, American
72. Neal Vaega, 38, New Zealander
73. Margarida Vaega, 47, New Zealander
74. Mark H. Wendell, 40, American
18 children were burned to death in the raging fire. Various members of government, including BATF, FBI, President William J. Clinton, AG Janet Reno to this day claim their actions were justified. I ardently disagree! The actions of the federal government of the U.S. were horrific, deplorable and shameful to any nation that considers itself to be free.
Not one member of the government was ever held to account for what they did. Congress held hearings that resulted in no disciplinary actions against any state actors.
The actions of the federal government at Waco forever changed my view of this government. I pray that this type of egregious action never again rears its ugly head in my homeland. However, I feel that the multitude of law enforcement agencies throughout America learned nothing and will continue to overstep their lawful authority until one day, there will come a dreadful blow-back.
until one day, there will come a dreadful blow-back.
You mean like Oklahoma City?
“until one day, there will come a dreadful blow-back.
You mean like Oklahoma City?”
Nah, that was a few nutcases acting on their raging feelings, just like the Govco nutcases who attacked the Davidian nutcases.
See a pattern? The problem isn’t that there are nutcases–always will be, of course–but rather that some emotional nutcases operate under the color of Law…AND that a ton of non-nutcases pay for it.
It’s ALWAYS epistemology at root. You actually think you can string together some abstractions that will somehow “justify” the murder of innocent adults and children? Well, you can’t. You can justify it in your own mind, of course, but so did McVeigh.
Primacy of Consciousness versus Primacy of Existence.
The unlawful murder of innocent people can NEVER be justified in reality. To pretend it can be, is to make a mockery of the meaning of justification. Those people WERE innocent, particularly as a matter of Law. That’s all there is to it and the pretension that there could be some justification for their murder isn’t one drop different than any “justification” McVeigh or any other mass murderer could offer.
Sorry, but that’s how it IS. Now go live with it, if you call that living. Maybe you could help the knowledge base and tell us what it feels like, to think like McVeigh. You don’t like him because of WHO he murdered, but maybe the problem is THAT he murdered.
Kevin can speak for himself, but I’ll tell you what I think the “blow-back” will be. It’ll be when good, decent, honest people–like most who read this blog–decide that they simply won’t take it any longer. They get one life to live each, and they’re gettin’ tired of living it as slaves. And bad news for those who think like murderers and slave-owners…that’ll be the end of that.
J. Klein has earned most rational commenter award! I respect his ability to articulate his position from a sound intellectual foundation. Bravo! Well done.
I will never initiate force upon anyone. Your slimy attempt to try and lump me in with the McVeigh of the world is a typical cheap shot, but as J. Klein has pointed out, it reveals your mindset. You think that some murder is “justifiable”. I bet you are comfortable with water boarding and drone strikes too. That is a horrible world to live in and clearly reason has not persuaded you to disavow any of it….sick and sad.
Another point worthy of highlighting; The FBI knew of the plot to bomb OKC/Murrah building and they chose to allow it. Why would that be?
As I have stated before, don’t be surprised when the goon squads come for you.
This is a damn good discussion and I don’t want to interfere with it. But just a reminder: please don’t cross the line into insults or name-calling. ‘Kay?