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David Codrea doesn’t want this one forgotten

And neither does David Hardy. Who compared the revelations in the Dobyns/ATF case as being a “Watergate or worse.”

The ATF and DoJ will bury this, exactly as they tried to get (and unfortunately all-but-succeeded in getting) Fast & Furious buried.

No, I’m not expecting this audience of cynics to be “shocked, simply shocked” at what the fedgov did to agent Jay Dobyns. I even expect that some will say, “Well, he knew the kind of scum he was associating with (and I don’t mean the Hells Angels he infiltrated). He deserved whatever he got.”

So why am I posting this? Maybe I’m doing it just to drive a little traffic David’s way, since pays by the pageview and pays so poorly their writers have to hustle views. David deserves the best.

But you know, really I’m posting it because, silly as it is, naive as it sounds, I still want to see wrongs righted. I still want to see these creeps who rule the U.S. brought to justice. I wouldn’t go so far as to say I have hope. But I can’t give up the idea that there’s still at least a hope of a hope. Somewhere. A hope in the mythical power of We the People to tame and hold an “honest government.”

Okay, okay. I just slipped a gear there for a moment. Little fugue state.

Anyhow, we know from F&F that David (and Mike Vanderboegh, too) will grab onto something like this and never let it go. So whether or not real justice is ever administered, those two and others will chip-chip-chip at the crumbling facade of fedgov (and especially ATF/DoJ) legitimacy.


  1. Iwoots
    Iwoots January 25, 2015 7:19 pm

    Claire, if I may fire a shot across the bow of those who would be quick to condemn:

    To those who would say “He deserved whatever he got.”, I am so jealous of you.

    My small-town middle America lower-middle class parents didn’t have the option to home-school me, nor send me to a private school so that I would be taught how to think rather than what to think; unlike your parents.

    When I decided to enlist (peacetime), I did not have neighbors who asked me “Is a country that sends its own citizens to internment camps because of their ancestry worth dying for?”; unlike you did.

    Unlike you, I did not encounter R.W. Bradford’s “Liberty” magazine, Ayn Rand, or even government unapproved troublemakers like Claire Wolfe until I was in my 30’s; and finally started asking questions.

    So, Jay Dobyns may get ‘get whatever he deserves’, but what do you who condemn him deserve to get for not speaking to him when he was a teenager/young adult?

  2. Josh from Oklahoma
    Josh from Oklahoma January 26, 2015 4:36 am

    I know it, Claire. We all know how spineless and underhanded our Feds can be. Why is it the BATFE all the time? Think about Randy Weaver (Ruby Ridge), and Waco. I’m not condoning it, but after reading Timothy McVeigh’s disclaimer, I wonder why things like the Oklahoma City Bombing don’t happen more often. I know the subject is taboo, but Timothy McVeigh thought that the government was out of control, and it was his duty as a patriot to show them the err of their ways.

  3. MamaLiberty
    MamaLiberty January 26, 2015 5:19 am

    Iwoots, I don’t think most of us here condemn Jay Dobyns. Anyone who turns from doing wrong and attempts to make it right, however imperfectly, is worthy of my support. I don’t hold out much hope he will find any sort of justice, unfortunately, but that should be no barrier to bringing the facts to public notice.

  4. David
    David January 26, 2015 5:28 am

    ATF just amazes me. They roll like some vicious criminal gang, serving no master or rule of law than that of their own profit and perpetuation. They make ISIS appear to have morals and compassion. Some hacker should publish their personnel files, with photos. When the revolution starts I’m sure these thugs will become death squads that will make the School of the Americas guys envious. We’ll all need to know who they are, especially if they live down the block.

  5. Claire
    Claire January 26, 2015 6:14 am

    “I know the subject is taboo, but Timothy McVeigh thought that the government was out of control, and it was his duty as a patriot to show them the err of their ways.”

    Josh, it’s not that the subject is taboo; it’s that committing mass murder of innocents is an evil concept of “patriotic duty.” Very much the government’s own concept, of course.

  6. Joel
    Joel January 26, 2015 7:38 am

    What ATF did to Jay Dobyns was, of course, a crime in itself. That said, well…When you say “he knew the kind of scum he was associating with,” you’re being too kind. He chose to be that kind of scum, by all accounts for 27 years. My sympathy is nonexistent. If his superiors had succeeded in framing him for the arson of his house, it would have been an ironic sort of justice.

    When I hear of someone getting into difficulty because of poor decision-making, I can often say “there but for the grace of God go I,” and mean it. But I can’t imagine ever getting into his sort of difficulty, and I’ll bet neither can you.

  7. Josh from Oklahoma
    Josh from Oklahoma January 26, 2015 9:49 am

    Thanks for the acknowledgement Claire. I just don’t know what we are going to do. David says in the above comment about them becoming death squads, I could totally see that. What better funded bunch of thugs are out there. They have access to all the technology our government has to offer under the pretense of “Homeland Security.” And like Joel says in a nutshell; How can we feel sorry for a man who lives with snakes and then is surprised when he gets bitten. Awaiting orders…….

  8. MamaLiberty
    MamaLiberty January 26, 2015 10:29 am

    I stand corrected, Joel. Guess some do condemn him. I can’t figure out why an injustice done to him would be “deserved,” however. Still, I am convinced that two wrongs never add up to a right.

  9. Paul Bonneau
    Paul Bonneau January 26, 2015 4:29 pm

    [I can’t figure out why an injustice done to him would be “deserved,” however.]

    Maybe because he dished out a lot of it himself?

    I don’t know the details, so that is really a question. But from what I have read, I’m more on Joel’s side. I can see easing up on a guy for mistakes while young and stupid, but 27 years?

    Look at the bright side. Recruitment for government work, particularly ATF, just got harder.

    As to death squads, I think some kind of minimum competency is required to pull that off. If any government employee has any, he doesn’t stay in ATF…

  10. MamaLiberty
    MamaLiberty January 27, 2015 6:54 am

    I seriously disagree Paul, injustice is never justice. Committing aggression (opposite of self defesne) is not a viable response to aggression. Justice calls for restitution, perhaps even punishment of some kind, but if “we” inflict or promote injustice, lies, fraud or other wrongs as a response to someone’s criminal acts… just how is it we could consider ourselves non-aggressors?

    Integrity requires that even the worst criminals, regardless of their motives, be dealt with in accordance with that non-aggression principle if he/she survives the initial aggression; is not killed by the intended victim.

    This is a seriously difficult thing to discuss, let alone live with, but my greatest fear for liberty is the tendency for some to throw it all out the window this way.

    Two wrongs do not make a right. Lies, fraud, and the US injustice system are not in any way related to or a substitute for self defense or reasoned response to an aggressor. And I know that you know that…

  11. Paul Bonneau
    Paul Bonneau January 27, 2015 8:01 am

    Well, there is no “we” here, is there? I have nothing to do with the criminal “Justice” system giving Dobyns grief now, and you don’t either.

    There is zero chance Dobyns will be involved in any restitution either.

    Two wrongs don’t make a right? Since we are bringing out old aphorisms, how about, “He made his bed, now he can sleep in it.” Or maybe, “Hoist by his own petard”…

  12. Paul Bonneau
    Paul Bonneau January 27, 2015 8:22 am

    This notion of a person “deserving” something always causes a lot of arguments. A woman who dresses provocatively and hangs out in bars, does she “deserve” rape? Maybe not, but a good thing to do is dress reasonably and not hang out in bars, right? We could go on and on about whether some end is deserved, but maybe we should just avoid the discussion. 🙂

  13. MamaLiberty
    MamaLiberty January 27, 2015 10:44 am

    Two totally different things, Paul. 🙂

    Each person absolutely “deserves” to be left alone to live their lives as they see fit, living with the consequences of their actions and paying the cost when they aggress on others.

    Dobysn obviously “deserves” to live with the consequences of his actions. The lies and fraud, aggression, etc. of the government he trusted and worked for are cetainly ironic, but the current system can’t be compared to liberty no matter how hard we try. My point was that if we use or approve the same basis and methods of the aggressors, we don’t have a non-aggression leg to stand on. I don’t ever intend to avoid the discussion. 🙂

  14. MamaLiberty
    MamaLiberty January 27, 2015 10:46 am

    “We” in the above simply meaning any of us, whether individual or in bunches.

  15. Paul Bonneau
    Paul Bonneau January 27, 2015 5:43 pm

    “My point was that if we use or approve the same basis and methods of the aggressors, we don’t have a non-aggression leg to stand on.”

    So… if I smile when Dobyns gets what he dished out to others, while having no effect whatever on whether he gets it or not, I am an aggressor? I don’t see it. I’ve aggressed against whom, exactly?

    Of course I am not comparing the current system with liberty in any way. I don’t see where you got that from my posts.

    Perhaps you are suggesting my smile or my posts are a little bit like voting, in that I lend my tiny weight of approval to his downfall. Neither Dobyns nor the prosecutors have any idea of my existence, much less my opinion, but it still forms a pressure of sorts. I’m standing on the edge of a lynch mob?

    Next time I will keep my smile to myself. In the meantime, how many angels do you think can dance on the head of this pin? 🙂

  16. MamaLiberty
    MamaLiberty January 28, 2015 6:26 am

    No, Paul. We’re talking past each other, obviously. Forget Dobyns… I just don’t ever want to become what I condemn in my enemies. What is “wrong” and what is “right?” This is something I believe we all struggle with all of our lives.

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