From Just Waiting in a recent comment section:
You made your money writing books about freedom and revolution, now you’re proud to declare you’re hiding in your cave once it begins? For someone who promotes freedom, you’re more condescending and dismissive than the Fox News puppets about the Occupy movement. Theatrics and a yeah, good luck with that? People are living in the streets to protest for your, mine our freedom. And you’re in a cave. Good luck with that too.
I’m not an anarchist or utopian dreamer, I’m a realist and a staunch supporter of my and others’ self-sovereignty. I live almost off the grid, raise my own food, supply my own heat, etc. And I will stand up and support those who have taken to the streets to voice their concerns.
I guess you made enough from your books to buy your own piece of freedom, and now screw those who come together wanting it for more than just themselves?
While we all look for those who can do, to do, more, you hide in your cave claiming deadly disease.* Sellout, fake, fraud and charlatan are words that come to mind. What a disppointment.
And here I thought he/she was only being tongue-in-cheek when earlier suggesting that I quit writing about sick dogs and become the next Robespierre.
The next Robespierre. Added: Robespierre most specifically. OMFG …
—–
* JW is referring to a humorous remark I made in response to Jim Bovard about not wanting to do interviews.
Wow …okay …so,you start selling rush Limbaugh t-shirts now?
.
You’re a “Sellout, fake, fraud and charlatan?” I knew it all along!
I’m so disillusioned…
I’d like to make a comment.
I didn’t think the original remark was tongue-in-cheek, but I didn’t expect this encore, either — and don’t see the point to it. There are many “causes” out there, some are seen as more important — and more pertinent — to freedom than others.
Just for the record, Just Waiting, what are you waiting for? (And specifically, what are you waiting for from Claire? Do you expect her to become a General Washington from her Valley Forge hermitage?)
He didn’t seem to mention when he was headed to those same streets to join in the protest himself did he? Hmmm, sounds like Theatrics and a yeah, good luck with that…
I wonder what constitutes standing up and supporting from his mostly off-grid homestead?
I guess you’re supposed to be the self appointed leader of the Freedomista’s telling people what to protest and how to live their lives.
Wait. Joel. If you knew all along I was a fake (and you’re in as good a position as anybody to know that) … what are you so disillusioned about? You should be pumping your fist, shouting, “Yess! I told you so!”
bumperwack … Um. Limbaugh t-shirts. Uh … no. Maybe Limbaugh on one side and Che on the other, though. Now there’s an idea …
Pat and Matt, another — good questions on what JW himself is doing. But since he’s looking (shudder) for a Robespierre, not a Washington, perhaps it’s a good thing that he’s simply playing Keyboard Commando from his semi-off-grid lair.
Incidentally, how does a person get almost off the grid? Seems like one of those either/or things. Like pregnancy. Or death. Or being Robespierre.
Let’s all just jump on some bandwagon, without giving it any serious thought and we can all wave banners with slogans we don’t understand and scream til we get on TV.
Better yet, let’s all take a page from JW’s book and become sanctimonious pricks, insisting that everyone else live up to our very specific expectations about self-sovereignty and how we should go about imposing it on people.
If we had his address, we could all join him almost off grid and form a freedom commune. We go out protesting during the day, sing kumbayah all night and let him do the work. I mean, life is all black and white – my way or the highway – for us or against us…
And if this wasn’t a public forum suitable for family viewing, I’d tell you what I really think.
Thanks for a great laugh!
LOL, great comments from Karen…..
FWTW, I don’t think any of the occupying going on is “it” anyway…….but then I’m not very good at following herds (in any directions)…..
*Typo from giggling to much, make that FWIW*
Karen, any time you want to do a guest gig on the blog, lemme know. You definitely have a way with words.
Joel, I think being almost off-grid is like being almost a freedomista who’s only in it for the money: a contradiction in terms.
I let my bad attitude get a bit carried away. As Claire noted in her original post, there are sincere people in these protests who are taking risks and making sacrifices for what they truly believe, and these people are not to be faulted for their faith in their actions. This core may make a difference somehow, but for someone to naively assume that this is the end-all and be-all and can’t possibly be subverted for some agenda is just ludicrous. Throwing unqualified support to almost anything, like there’s never a downside or unintended consequences, is usually just the lazy way out of seeing reality, in my opinion.
The greatest contribution to freedom that Claire makes, over and over and over, is the encouragement to think for ourselves and not be part of whatever is the “herd” mentality of the day(thanks NG). If JW is thinking for himself, more power to him. To demand that Claire, or any of us, agree with his every pronouncement isn’t in any way a trait of a true freedom seeker.
Claire,
My sincere apologies. I questioned your integrity without cause, and that was unfair and unjust of me. I really think I live too close to NYC to ever achieve what I seek as personal freedom. Having been to OWC myself, and with two kids there regularly, I allowed my enthusiasm for the cause to get the better of me and set upon you for not jumping on the bandwagon.
My apologies
Just Waiting — Thank you. That’s very gracious of you & I appreciate it.
BTW, although I can very well see how living close to NYC would alter one’s view of the possibilities of personal freedom, I believe personal freedom can be found anywhere. Not perfect freedom, for sure. Even Joel out in the desert boonies doesn’t have that. But it’s more about attitude than anything else.
I know we’re all going to find it in different ways, so we can all learn from each other, too.
And cheers to your kids for taking action and giving themselves the experience of being with OWS.
Some people are still waiting for Claire to say “It’s now time to Shoot the Bastards.” (Or would that be “Time’s Up!” Hehe.) Which we all know is NOT going to ever happen for obvious reasons. When it IS time, no one will have to encourage The Shooting of the Bastards (sounds like an Olympic event, it will be automatic and unstoppable.
Sigh. Please forgive the poor punctuation of the above post.
Everyone has their own role to play. When freedom lovers start judging each person’s role…meh, not so great.
I’m NYC metro born and raised, and it IS difficult to appreciate freedom in that area.
But over the years I’ve learned that freedom is 99% mindset and only 1% everything else.
🙂
Freedoms just another word for nothin left too lose…
The OWS is nothing more than a left wing attempt to grab some Tea Party cred. The TP went a long way towards throwing out the Dems whose thirst for power is beyond reason. They know that people aren’t happy so they tried to start their own TP… which would reverse their worst nightmare, which is being out of power. They believe the Republicans co-opted the TP for their own ends, and lord knows they tried, and want some of their own TP magic. There’s a lot of “Just waiting” with keyboards around these days. They are appearing all over Libertarian blogs and are not too subtle in equating our quest for less government with there quest for universal serfdom. They’re easy to spot. Look for the Marxist trappings, the common/greater good, Arab Spring, and talk of a single purpose, unification, blah, blah, blah. Freedom is slavery and slavery is freedom. What I don’t get is why they think this will appeal to Libertarians? It’s as if they think they’re so clever that a dose of Socialist Theory will make us crumble like the WTC at the smallest mention of being serviced at the whims of the new boss for the common good. Classic fail, indeed. They always show up, get hammered, apologize and then reinvent themselves. Next week she (and I think it is a she by the writing style) will show up under a different name. Watch for it. I suspect that Cass Sunstein, Obama’s administrator in The Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs (who claims he’s a Libertarian… only with a centralized authority twist), is sitting in the bowels of the OMB with a few other people writing blog posts.
Revolutions are top down driven… in other words coup d’etat by those who cannot gain power any other way. Often appearing to be “spontanious”, “organic” or “up from the street” to gather support and deflect powerful opposition, they intentionally pitch a big tent to attract as many of the disenfranchised as possible into the fold. Hence the populist, wishy-washy political messages on the OWS websites.
Later, the idealistic “usefull idiots” who thought they were fighting for a better life are generally shot, put in prison. or flee the country with hounds on their tails. They pose one of the last major threats to the “New Boss”, should the mask fall before their elimination. He must have consolidated power prior to showing his fangs.
Here is a former KGB agent showing how they did it during the Cold War: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZHRgTskEhE
Watch to completion, investigate the case studies, and take notes on the steps involved.
Just Waiting, your apology to Claire made my morning and gave me renewed hope for all of us freedom seekers. I also apologize for my sarcastic attacks on you. Letting my passions get the better of me is a slavery that I may never escape, but usually have better control of. And why would we even be here at Claire’s house if we weren’t passionate thinking people?
We all are not likely to ever come to perfect consensus, even on such important matters as freedom, because we all come with different situations, histories and frames of reference through which we evaluate and process all the data around us. The important thing is that we recognize these natural biases and work very hard to think through them. Sometimes they add a wealth of experience that lead to effective thinking and sometimes they add hindrances to our ability to see through logical fallacies and charismatic sound bytes. Sometimes we’re right for the wrong reasons and sometimes we’re wrong but for the right reasons.
Whatever, I’m fairly well certain that Claire doesn’t ever want a bunch of doe-eyed groupies hanging on her every word, paralysed until that word is spoken. Better a bit of a shake-up periodically than an audience of sheeple.
“I will stand up and support those who have taken to the streets to voice their concerns.”
The OWS people have taken to the wrong streets. The bag men kiss the rings of the Dons, not the other way around. OWS should be focusing its ire on the power of Congressmen to bestow favors and privileges in return for “campaign” cash and access to the luxuries of the wealthy. A parallel protest in DC, concurrent with OWS—now THAT would be something!
Well, I didn’t see that coming. From the style of the OP I wouldn’t have thought JW would be capable of recognizing their error, much less apologising for it. I’m glad to see that I was wrong. Way to stand up.
Also, self-sovereignty to me means just that, sovereignty of self, with no obligation to join, or lead, any movement. Self-aware individuals don’t always make the best armies. An effective soldier necessarily surrenders control to authority. I think, though, that free individuals would make one hell of a strong nation. I can’t say for sure as I don’t know if it’s ever been done.
@ JW *pat on the back* That was pretty awesome of you.
I have to admit to be being baffled by the OWS movement and thinking this is some kind of true freedom movement that truly represents 99% of the people. Most are calling for an end to capitalism, which means replacing it with something less free, i.e. socialism. It calls for “the rich” paying their “fair share” which again means somebody has to decide what is fair and then go beat it out of the rich, which sounds conspicuously unfree to me, but maybe it is just me.
There are also calls to end Wall Street, Bankers, and “Corporate Greed” which is going to be problematic seeing how the the above aforementioned are the largest donors to the party that wants to move us to socialism the fastest, creating what lawyers call a conflict of interest. Admittedly BOTH parties are moving us there, one just seems to be moving a little faster than the other.
Last, I am not rich and I don’t support what these people stand for in any way shape or form because it looks to be calling for bigger more intrusive government. So if I am not the 1% rich and I am not part of the 99% marching I seem to be unaccounted for. Maybe my math is broken, but I think 99 + 1 is 100% not leaving much room for people like me. Seems problematic.
I realize the commenter has apologized and this whole issue is over, but I still really want to say this…
To anyone waiting for a leader or urging someone else to become a leader:
Stop waiting and go be the leader yourself!
This is especially true for a movement that values individual achievement and independence. Go out and do. Don’t worry what others are doing.
Our cause is very good about “rewarding” achievement by putting the achiever into a leadership position. I’ve served in some sort of leadership capacity in a number of groups. Each time, all I had to do was go out and do something. It really wasn’t all that difficult.
What was difficult was once in leadership you had to put up with people like the commenter, only none of them ever apologized for their behavior.
Anyway, he has seen the error of his ways and I commend him for the apology.
“When criminals make all the laws.. anyone fighting them fights a just cause.” Where did I hear that? Hmmm…
I think the OWS groupies are wanting more laws and regulations… how can that add to freedom?
I like the guys there calling for a $20/hr. minimum wage… like that wouldn’t put a 1/3 of the country out of work completely.
The OWS bunch sure seem to be heading down that Road to Surfdom we’ve been warned about…
“A society that puts equality before freedom will get neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both.”
― Milton Friedman
I apologized to Claire, but neglected to apologize to everyone else for subjecting you to my clearly improper and misplaced rant. I am sorry, and make no excuse for my poor behavior. I ask your forgiveness.
Karen, you are so right, freedom has so many interpretations, all predicated upon our experiences, exposures, etc. Very few among us are able to live completely seperate from the influences of society, be it a need to work for a paycheck, pay a mortgage, get medical care, etc. For too many of us, and for as hard as we fight against it, our personal freedom is incessantly affected by the concerns and activities of the world.
Living not nearly far enough from the outskirts of NYC, I am exposed daily to the influences of a society gone bad. The actions of a few are causing suffering to many, and the field has become far too tilted for the few to have any, let alone a fair, chance. People like us who seek autonomy and freedom have had any chance of that stripped from them by what has been happening in our country the last few years. People have lost not only their chance at freedom, but their human dignity as well. I’ve seen small farmers forced to sell to developers because the farm couldn’t pay the property taxes, even with special assessment, forget about paying a mortgage. I talk to people constantly who are watching their co-workers get fired and themselves are but 1 or 2 paychecks from losing everything and moving their families back to their parents house. I see grandparents raising their childrens families, spending what would have some day been an inheritance on daily living expenses. And why? Because our country’s political, economic and social systems are broken and skewed to favor the haves over the have-nots.
Every transaction in life requires the exchange of some type of currency, be it credit, cash sale or barter and trade. The price of freedom is not only a human cost, it does bear a dollar sign. Even starting out in the woods requires a nest egg of sorts. So today, it hurts me, and it offends my personal sense of freedom, to see that without some kind of significant change to “America”, so many may never even have a chance to try.
I don’t know, and do somehow fear, what that change may look like, but I am glad to see people coming together to give thought to it and begin the process
Karen,
I wish I could accept your apology, but it is unwarranted and I do not deserve it. As you pointed out, I was a pompous, arrogant prick and I deserved every word you wrote.
It is I who must aplogize to you, for being so nasty and venemous to one who we both admire.
Just Waiting — You’re truly being gracious. But I don’t think anybody here believes you need more apologies. Both sides did some pretty good hammering on the other. We can all be glad it’s over and we can move on. We’re in this together, each in our own ways.
Everything you wrote above about the sufferings of ordinary people at the hands of entrenched power is spot on.
No need to apologize to me since I absolutely hear, feel and understand your pain and frustration, JW, and you probably noticed that the nature of my response/rant was also over the line! On the local playground we’d both have gotten suspended. Bless Claire for not kicking us both out of her house.
I sense that we’re all feeling a high level of rage and frustration, and if we’re not, then we’ve not accepted Claire’s challenge to think. One of the most horrible conditions we can endure is being powerless and we’re getting bigger and bigger doses of that in our lives every single day. What we as individuals can do looks so miniscule in the face of all the huge tyranies perpetrated everywhere we turn. The losses and horrors you describe are happening all over the country and still a huge percent of the population is just laying back waiting for the next election to fix it rather than doing anything in their own lives. Not only are they not doing anything, but they’re demanding that their lives be managed for them. Tom, Dick and Harry insist on safe flying courtesy of the TSA, safe food from the FDA, safe money from the Fed, safe this and safe that. We each do what we can do and encourage others to do what they can do, although I can’t figure out how you knew that I lived in the woods. ;<)
I’m still trying to process the inherent contradictions. Anyone who preaches freedom and self-sovereignty, then demands either to be led or to be followed, would by definition be a hypocrite. So to demand a freedomista become a leader would be to demand they become a hypocrite, and at the same time the person making such a demand would be admitting that they would knowingly and willingly follow a hypocrite. I realize that the desire to be led is a common human tendancy, and often overrides logic, but still?
Things that make you go “Wha….?”
Claire,
I, for one, wish to apologize for JW’s comments. They (apparently) are coming from someone in need of a leader. Someone to tell them what to do, where to go, and how to do it. Kind of like a freedom, but with tyrants (on our side, at least) that will still tell us what to do, but for own good this time. Wait, isn’t that the case anyway???
I have always believed that you practice what you preach (What? She didn’t fight for Liberty from her condo???) and you know, as does any avid reader of your work, that Freedom is rarely found in group think, but in solitude. Not necessarily geographical solitude, but that mindset that isn’t found in bullhorns and barricades.
JW, if you ever read this, take a look and see who’s really promoting freedom-the large mass wailing for someone to do something, or the one who walks upon their own road and welcomes others to follow if they so choose…
Oh, hey. I just saw his post up there. Well, JW, I’m glad that you said that, and glad that you didn’t just run off like alot of others do. :), We all get frustrated, I know that I do.
Why do you think that there are so many people at the shooting ranges?
🙂
While we all seek our own inner place, remember that if those who gave their lives for these freedoms 250 years ago. If THEY had chosen to avoid the “herd mentality” and had not banded together in protest, we’d all still be subjects of the Crown!
I have to disagree, JW.
Working together is not the same as “herd mentality.” Finding a common cause and working through the differences toward a common goal is not “herd mentality.” Banding together in protest is not “herd mentality”, in and of itself. What takes these things out of herd mentality is the purpose and thinking that each individual brings to the group to achieve the goals he/she is striving for. And it’s not inconceivable that those individual goals can be met while working together.
If you have not read Claire’s books, you might find them enlightening. Her premise is that we have three basic ways of offense/defense, the Agitator, the Mole, and the Ghost, and you can be any of these three at certain times in your life. I believe that Claire definitely has had her days of Agitator! She seems to be in more of an underground role right now, that doesn’t mean that she will stay there.
You will need to find your role, as we all do, and all of them are and will be essential in the coming years.
Good for you, JW, that was nice to see an apology….as for answers to anything, we’re all still learning – it’s part of life…….sometimes that learning means changing something else you thought you had already “learned” ;)………
Your writings are an inspiration to those of us that don’t have enough time left in our lives to waste it protesting about something over which we have no control.
You go girl!!!
So JW had never heard anyone joke about having rabies before?
Gracious.
That’s almost enough to make me reconsider getting my own rabies booster shot.
Everything you need to know about OWS is illustrated nicely by the fact that they’re crowing about a ‘victory’ over Bank of America that was actually achieved by hundreds of thousands of people making a free-market choice to reject a business they felt was overcharging them.
How their drumming, group hugs, and serenity circles managed this, I have no idea. But hey, maybe it was all the sexual assaults.