look a vet in the eye, grab their hand and do not let go
thank them from the bottom of your heart
tell them – they are not forgotten
thank you
Jake
KarelNovember 11, 2011 8:52 am
Thank them for what? Jesus Christ, how many vets alive today ever fought for our freedom or anything else that’s good? How many of them were nothing but hired killers following government orders to do whatever government wanted them to do for the sake of power and empire? Sure, maybe a lot of them have suffered and died, but not for any good reason.
What jingoistic crap, Jake. What complete, mindless pro-government bollocks.
I’ve been reading your book and liking it a lot. I understand your admiration for the toughness and camaraderie of Marines. But I figured you as a guy who knows better than to push this every vet is a hero of liberty crap.
ClaireNovember 11, 2011 8:59 am
While I wouldn’t use words as strong as the above newbie poster, I also have to ask — thank them for what, Jake? What specific thing or things did the soldiers of the (for instance) Vietnam, Iraq (1 and 2), Afghanistan, Grenada, etc. etc. etc. wars do that anybody here should thank them for?
KarelNovember 11, 2011 9:55 am
We could thank the helicopter pilot that stopped Lt. Calley and his gang before they could kill more than 500 people in Vietnam.
We could thank the military personnel who just court-martialed that gang of US Military thrill-killers in Afghanistan.
We could thank the soldiers who helped expose the truth about Pat Tillman getting his head blown off by his own troops.
Look, I’m sure some soldiers are brave and stick up for their buddies and all that. I’m glad to thank the militiamen who stood up at Lexington and Concord and some of those who fought in World War II. I’m not saying every soldier is evil. Some mean well. Some are just mindless dupes. Some are no better than gangsters.
It’s just that this whole business about getting all sentimental about soldiers or teachers or cops or anybody else turns off our brains. It tells us not to think about the real things real people do. It tells us to quit thinking and obey. Does it piss me off that anybody here of all places would say don’t think, don’t question, just believe that anybody who puts on a uniform is fighting for freedom? Yeah, it pisses me off.
And one more thing I forgot to mention in my earlier comment. It’s not just about empire and power, it’s about MONEY.
ScottNovember 11, 2011 10:25 am
A lot of my family have served in the military,so maybe that colors my outlook some, but here’s how I see it. They were willing to defend this country-was every war necessary or just? No-in my opinion, World War 2 was the last war we really needed to be involved in,but most people join up to defend this country, not just to go out and mindlessly blow stuff up and kill people. Of the people I know who have joined the military, most are some of the brighter bulbs in the human chandelier. Is that always the case? No. I do feel that the military is used past its intended purpose-which is to defend this country from attack. In my opinion(that,and 55 cents,gets you a can of Coke out of the machine at the end of the hall)the military has one function-protecting this country from invasion or attack.That’s pretty much it.
Soldiers, I’m told, can question-or disobey-orders they feel are illegal/immoral,though they may find that choice a rough road to travel.
Time to get off the soapbox-I can store books in it..
KarelNovember 11, 2011 10:41 am
See @Scott, you’re thinking it out so even if we disagree on some things we’re both still thinking and have a chance to work things out.
What pissed me off was somebody coming on here and saying don’t think, just have the emotional reaction your government wants you to have so it can get away with more useless wars. Don’t think, just react like we programmed you to.
I’ve just discovered Clair in the last year and I thought she seemed smart, but she must be a moron if she endorses somebody with an attitude like that.
Curt SNovember 11, 2011 11:03 am
Ya know what? I have spent over 16 years in the military and I have never heard of such a load of bullshit as what was posted above in some comments. Ya know something else….if you don’t like this country or its military…get the hell out of it and move elsewhere! We do NOT need you! I’ll be the first to admit war is hell…and not “fair”. Well….sorry to bust your bubble but life is not fair…never has been.
ClaireNovember 11, 2011 11:20 am
Karel — Hey, I resemble that remark. But seriously, I’m leaving your “moron” comment in because you directed it at me, not another commenter, and the possibility always exists that I am a moron.
However, you need to know a few things if you’re going to post around here: 1) No name-calling (especially from somebody who claims to be an advocate of thinking), 2) I endorse Jake’s book, but as you ought to realize from my earlier comment, I don’t share his view that all vets deserve to be thanked, and 3), it’s ClairE — with an e.
That said, welcome to the comment section.
ClaireNovember 11, 2011 11:21 am
Curt S, the founders of the U.S. (notably men like Jefferson) wouldn’t have liked our military, either. At least not in its current form. They clearly saw standing armies and the actions of empire to be anti-freedom. Should they have left the country, too?
And IMHO, loving one’s country (that is, its ideals, among other things) and loving its military don’t have to be the same thing.
KarelNovember 11, 2011 12:08 pm
Sorry @ClairE, I didn’t mean you are a moron, I meant you’d be one if you quit thinking. Nevermind. Veterans day, and Mem. day, too, all get to be too much for this old hired killer. When I hear the don’t think, just thank routine I always want to shout “don’t you think you should find out what we did first before you thank us!” I came here this morning hoping to get away from all that brainless gushing and Im SORRY SORRY SORRY for getting out of hand when that nobrain shit is the first thing I ran into.
Steve HarrisNovember 11, 2011 1:00 pm
Karel, I’m glad you’re taking back your hard words. Calling the military ‘hired killers’ doesn’t accomplish much other than getting people pissed off at you. They may actually amount to that but I think all you can do is show why and help convince people why it shouldn’t be.
Most of the posters here probably think of an ideal military as a well equipped militia that goes into service to defend the borders and in emergencies like floods, earthquakes & hurricanes. Also assembling to train and not much else.
I do respect the military. It was a popular option for high school grads when I was a kid. I can see why the crappy economy makes it attractive for people now. I think we should support them in a real way of helping them learn what a citizen soldier is and more about rights and liberties. We should also help them recover from their wounds and rejoin society. I am totally appalled by people who believe ‘supporting our troops’ means sending them off to invade every goatf***er country so they can get blown up & shot.
Our addiction to perpetual war shows why the founding fathers weren’t fond of standing armies. They get used and the training to make someone an effective soldier is largely how to kill and not to refuse going to places where they will kill & be killed. Rational people avoid such places and it takes training to overcome this.
Patriotism needs to be separated from militarism. I just don’t see condemning people who served because they were raised to believe it was the right thing. Look at the history of WWII. Some guys committed suicide when they were 4F.
Steve
PatNovember 11, 2011 1:10 pm
Without trying to start an argument, I would like to expand on one thought of Scott’s — that the military should exist to protect us from invasion. I consider the “military” to be a standing army — and that is not needed.
If this country was attacked — this country, not some other country where U.S. “citizens” happened to be, and not even our neighboring countries unless the American continent was threatened overall — I would hope that we ALL would defend it: defend our family, our friends, our neighbors, the State we live in. But this is called self-defense, and we, as civilian militia, would want to jump in. *I hope.*
Now certain expensive tools and armaments such as planes, ships, tanks, etc. may be stored somewhere and called into play in order to protect our “boundary” or coastline; and these items may be owned by private imdividuals or militia groups, and may be used to protect individuals, groups, or a larger contingent. Further, coordination from all levels of “government” may be utilized during an attack. But a standing army _per se_ is not necessary when all people are armed and ready to defend themselves.
It’s only when we rely on others (including government) to protect us that we need a specific organization hanging around to keep the enemy off our backs.
Jake MacGregorNovember 11, 2011 4:10 pm
Dear Karel, I am glad you like my book.
On most of the rest — we may agree more than you think but not in such a disagreeable way.
I, however, do like most Veterans and appreciate their devotion to our Country. Like most of you, I often confuse the notion of what I love about America vs. how much I despise what our government has morphed into.
I love Airstreams, little league, hot dogs, and the 4th of July. I am moved when I see movies like “The Patriot” or “Bands of Brothers”.
I try my best to write about that dichotomy — Government v We the People. I think it is easy to see how much I loathe Big Gov, water-boarding, financial corruption, et al.
But most of the men and women I have known that served did so out of a sense of service & a desire to keep what freedom we have alive. I did.
They are patriots that often feel as you do. They loathe the waste of life, the corruption and moral decline that now embodies our nation.
But when I see a fellow Veteran – men like Mr. Floyd that taught me how to ride a horse when he only had one leg because he lost the other at Anzio – I weep.
When I see flag draped coffins, I cry.
When men like Mr Smythers cut my hair I nod in silent understanding because I know he endured 3 years of captivity in a NAZI prison camp during WW2.
I went to VMI with men who’s fathers survived almost a decade in the Hanoi Hilton. I counted them lucky because my Father only lived 5 days in Vietnam as a Chopper Pilot before he was shot down and killed.
Do I like all Veterans? No.
I did not like all of them when I served with them. (Just like I do not like all comments on blogs (elbow intended)).
And this may be a distinction(s) that serves only me: I do not like war but I often love the warriors.
I was spat on as a child because my Father was killed in Vietnam. The Government denied us Veteran’s benefits for 7 years because they told us he was not killed in war (it was 1964) – how about that for a grateful nation?
Yet I still believed, and still want to believe, that there is something noble about these United States that is the exception to man’s long history of slavery and serfdom such that I, in the aftermath of the Vietnam war, still volunteered to sign up into the United States Marine Corps and Virginia Military Institution.
Am I morally corrupt? I do not think so.
I hope, that like Mr Floyd I have helped hundreds of children grasp a step up in life (and I have through my work these 23 years as a Scoutmaster and Leader).
I hope I am half as naive as Mr Smythers – a quiet man that loves his country but despises the morass that DC has become.
I hope I am a fraction of the man my Grandfather was (one of the Flying Tigers). That one small (5’4″) quirky little man had more courage, devotion and honor than any three other men I have ever met – and he never spoke a word about his service to anyone other than me.
So, Dear Mr. Karel (and Claire) I may be a rube for liking, honoring and respecting Veterans. I may have been sucked in by the gov’t propaganda. Gullible, naive, flag waving, a moron of infinite degree.
So be it. Happy Veterans Day.
ENNovember 11, 2011 4:32 pm
I say this in most respectful and polite manner possible. No one has to look me in the eye and thank me for anything. Anyone calling me “hired killer” can wait while I bend over and allow you to put your lips on my ass. It needs to be said that many who never heard a shot fired in anger stood before the Soviet Union, an evil empire if ever there was one, knowing full well how that would go should the thug Soviets decide to test us. And having spent a large chunk of my life looking at that empire I can say without hesitation that they were dangerous to any freedom loving people and without the US military we would not be having this conversation. The flip side of that coin is that most soldiers I know, but obviously not all, have a greater respect for the constitution than the average American whose version of a tough life means they got the flu in college.
ClaireNovember 11, 2011 4:34 pm
Very eloquent, Jake. And perhaps the kind of statement Veterans Day really deserves. I will forgive you for dodging my question. 🙂
Teresa SueNovember 12, 2011 7:44 am
I dodged chores yesterday to read all the chapters. I am enjoying the story alot. I don’t particularly like reading a computer screen, would rather have the actual book in my hot little hands ;^)
All very good comments above-except for the name calling :^(. Also being a child that scurried under her desk many a time in school practicing our Soviet nuke drills (in retrospect, I don’t really know how that would have helped us if the Soviets would have nuked us), I especially agree with EN. I might add that, IMO that situation is still with us, just lurking and waiting to visit us.
Jake MacGregorNovember 12, 2011 8:29 am
Teresa Sue
Thank You for your kind words
it will be available in hard copy & on Kindle soon
regards,
Jake
KarelNovember 12, 2011 10:22 am
@Jake, that makes a lot more sense and a good piece of writing, too. Some vets deserve honor or at least pity for their government using then screwing them. But like in everything else to do with the government we have to keep our eyes open and our brains working and not just puke out their propaganda lines on cue.
if you read my work then please do this today:
look a vet in the eye, grab their hand and do not let go
thank them from the bottom of your heart
tell them – they are not forgotten
thank you
Jake
Thank them for what? Jesus Christ, how many vets alive today ever fought for our freedom or anything else that’s good? How many of them were nothing but hired killers following government orders to do whatever government wanted them to do for the sake of power and empire? Sure, maybe a lot of them have suffered and died, but not for any good reason.
What jingoistic crap, Jake. What complete, mindless pro-government bollocks.
I’ve been reading your book and liking it a lot. I understand your admiration for the toughness and camaraderie of Marines. But I figured you as a guy who knows better than to push this every vet is a hero of liberty crap.
While I wouldn’t use words as strong as the above newbie poster, I also have to ask — thank them for what, Jake? What specific thing or things did the soldiers of the (for instance) Vietnam, Iraq (1 and 2), Afghanistan, Grenada, etc. etc. etc. wars do that anybody here should thank them for?
We could thank the helicopter pilot that stopped Lt. Calley and his gang before they could kill more than 500 people in Vietnam.
We could thank the military personnel who just court-martialed that gang of US Military thrill-killers in Afghanistan.
We could thank the soldiers who helped expose the truth about Pat Tillman getting his head blown off by his own troops.
Look, I’m sure some soldiers are brave and stick up for their buddies and all that. I’m glad to thank the militiamen who stood up at Lexington and Concord and some of those who fought in World War II. I’m not saying every soldier is evil. Some mean well. Some are just mindless dupes. Some are no better than gangsters.
It’s just that this whole business about getting all sentimental about soldiers or teachers or cops or anybody else turns off our brains. It tells us not to think about the real things real people do. It tells us to quit thinking and obey. Does it piss me off that anybody here of all places would say don’t think, don’t question, just believe that anybody who puts on a uniform is fighting for freedom? Yeah, it pisses me off.
And one more thing I forgot to mention in my earlier comment. It’s not just about empire and power, it’s about MONEY.
A lot of my family have served in the military,so maybe that colors my outlook some, but here’s how I see it. They were willing to defend this country-was every war necessary or just? No-in my opinion, World War 2 was the last war we really needed to be involved in,but most people join up to defend this country, not just to go out and mindlessly blow stuff up and kill people. Of the people I know who have joined the military, most are some of the brighter bulbs in the human chandelier. Is that always the case? No. I do feel that the military is used past its intended purpose-which is to defend this country from attack. In my opinion(that,and 55 cents,gets you a can of Coke out of the machine at the end of the hall)the military has one function-protecting this country from invasion or attack.That’s pretty much it.
Soldiers, I’m told, can question-or disobey-orders they feel are illegal/immoral,though they may find that choice a rough road to travel.
Time to get off the soapbox-I can store books in it..
See @Scott, you’re thinking it out so even if we disagree on some things we’re both still thinking and have a chance to work things out.
What pissed me off was somebody coming on here and saying don’t think, just have the emotional reaction your government wants you to have so it can get away with more useless wars. Don’t think, just react like we programmed you to.
I’ve just discovered Clair in the last year and I thought she seemed smart, but she must be a moron if she endorses somebody with an attitude like that.
Ya know what? I have spent over 16 years in the military and I have never heard of such a load of bullshit as what was posted above in some comments. Ya know something else….if you don’t like this country or its military…get the hell out of it and move elsewhere! We do NOT need you! I’ll be the first to admit war is hell…and not “fair”. Well….sorry to bust your bubble but life is not fair…never has been.
Karel — Hey, I resemble that remark. But seriously, I’m leaving your “moron” comment in because you directed it at me, not another commenter, and the possibility always exists that I am a moron.
However, you need to know a few things if you’re going to post around here: 1) No name-calling (especially from somebody who claims to be an advocate of thinking), 2) I endorse Jake’s book, but as you ought to realize from my earlier comment, I don’t share his view that all vets deserve to be thanked, and 3), it’s ClairE — with an e.
That said, welcome to the comment section.
Curt S, the founders of the U.S. (notably men like Jefferson) wouldn’t have liked our military, either. At least not in its current form. They clearly saw standing armies and the actions of empire to be anti-freedom. Should they have left the country, too?
And IMHO, loving one’s country (that is, its ideals, among other things) and loving its military don’t have to be the same thing.
Sorry @ClairE, I didn’t mean you are a moron, I meant you’d be one if you quit thinking. Nevermind. Veterans day, and Mem. day, too, all get to be too much for this old hired killer. When I hear the don’t think, just thank routine I always want to shout “don’t you think you should find out what we did first before you thank us!” I came here this morning hoping to get away from all that brainless gushing and Im SORRY SORRY SORRY for getting out of hand when that nobrain shit is the first thing I ran into.
Karel, I’m glad you’re taking back your hard words. Calling the military ‘hired killers’ doesn’t accomplish much other than getting people pissed off at you. They may actually amount to that but I think all you can do is show why and help convince people why it shouldn’t be.
Most of the posters here probably think of an ideal military as a well equipped militia that goes into service to defend the borders and in emergencies like floods, earthquakes & hurricanes. Also assembling to train and not much else.
I do respect the military. It was a popular option for high school grads when I was a kid. I can see why the crappy economy makes it attractive for people now. I think we should support them in a real way of helping them learn what a citizen soldier is and more about rights and liberties. We should also help them recover from their wounds and rejoin society. I am totally appalled by people who believe ‘supporting our troops’ means sending them off to invade every goatf***er country so they can get blown up & shot.
Our addiction to perpetual war shows why the founding fathers weren’t fond of standing armies. They get used and the training to make someone an effective soldier is largely how to kill and not to refuse going to places where they will kill & be killed. Rational people avoid such places and it takes training to overcome this.
Patriotism needs to be separated from militarism. I just don’t see condemning people who served because they were raised to believe it was the right thing. Look at the history of WWII. Some guys committed suicide when they were 4F.
Steve
Without trying to start an argument, I would like to expand on one thought of Scott’s — that the military should exist to protect us from invasion. I consider the “military” to be a standing army — and that is not needed.
If this country was attacked — this country, not some other country where U.S. “citizens” happened to be, and not even our neighboring countries unless the American continent was threatened overall — I would hope that we ALL would defend it: defend our family, our friends, our neighbors, the State we live in. But this is called self-defense, and we, as civilian militia, would want to jump in. *I hope.*
Now certain expensive tools and armaments such as planes, ships, tanks, etc. may be stored somewhere and called into play in order to protect our “boundary” or coastline; and these items may be owned by private imdividuals or militia groups, and may be used to protect individuals, groups, or a larger contingent. Further, coordination from all levels of “government” may be utilized during an attack. But a standing army _per se_ is not necessary when all people are armed and ready to defend themselves.
It’s only when we rely on others (including government) to protect us that we need a specific organization hanging around to keep the enemy off our backs.
Dear Karel, I am glad you like my book.
On most of the rest — we may agree more than you think but not in such a disagreeable way.
I, however, do like most Veterans and appreciate their devotion to our Country. Like most of you, I often confuse the notion of what I love about America vs. how much I despise what our government has morphed into.
I love Airstreams, little league, hot dogs, and the 4th of July. I am moved when I see movies like “The Patriot” or “Bands of Brothers”.
I try my best to write about that dichotomy — Government v We the People. I think it is easy to see how much I loathe Big Gov, water-boarding, financial corruption, et al.
But most of the men and women I have known that served did so out of a sense of service & a desire to keep what freedom we have alive. I did.
They are patriots that often feel as you do. They loathe the waste of life, the corruption and moral decline that now embodies our nation.
But when I see a fellow Veteran – men like Mr. Floyd that taught me how to ride a horse when he only had one leg because he lost the other at Anzio – I weep.
When I see flag draped coffins, I cry.
When men like Mr Smythers cut my hair I nod in silent understanding because I know he endured 3 years of captivity in a NAZI prison camp during WW2.
I went to VMI with men who’s fathers survived almost a decade in the Hanoi Hilton. I counted them lucky because my Father only lived 5 days in Vietnam as a Chopper Pilot before he was shot down and killed.
Do I like all Veterans? No.
I did not like all of them when I served with them. (Just like I do not like all comments on blogs (elbow intended)).
And this may be a distinction(s) that serves only me: I do not like war but I often love the warriors.
I was spat on as a child because my Father was killed in Vietnam. The Government denied us Veteran’s benefits for 7 years because they told us he was not killed in war (it was 1964) – how about that for a grateful nation?
Yet I still believed, and still want to believe, that there is something noble about these United States that is the exception to man’s long history of slavery and serfdom such that I, in the aftermath of the Vietnam war, still volunteered to sign up into the United States Marine Corps and Virginia Military Institution.
Am I morally corrupt? I do not think so.
I hope, that like Mr Floyd I have helped hundreds of children grasp a step up in life (and I have through my work these 23 years as a Scoutmaster and Leader).
I hope I am half as naive as Mr Smythers – a quiet man that loves his country but despises the morass that DC has become.
I hope I am a fraction of the man my Grandfather was (one of the Flying Tigers). That one small (5’4″) quirky little man had more courage, devotion and honor than any three other men I have ever met – and he never spoke a word about his service to anyone other than me.
So, Dear Mr. Karel (and Claire) I may be a rube for liking, honoring and respecting Veterans. I may have been sucked in by the gov’t propaganda. Gullible, naive, flag waving, a moron of infinite degree.
So be it. Happy Veterans Day.
I say this in most respectful and polite manner possible. No one has to look me in the eye and thank me for anything. Anyone calling me “hired killer” can wait while I bend over and allow you to put your lips on my ass. It needs to be said that many who never heard a shot fired in anger stood before the Soviet Union, an evil empire if ever there was one, knowing full well how that would go should the thug Soviets decide to test us. And having spent a large chunk of my life looking at that empire I can say without hesitation that they were dangerous to any freedom loving people and without the US military we would not be having this conversation. The flip side of that coin is that most soldiers I know, but obviously not all, have a greater respect for the constitution than the average American whose version of a tough life means they got the flu in college.
Very eloquent, Jake. And perhaps the kind of statement Veterans Day really deserves. I will forgive you for dodging my question. 🙂
I dodged chores yesterday to read all the chapters. I am enjoying the story alot. I don’t particularly like reading a computer screen, would rather have the actual book in my hot little hands ;^)
All very good comments above-except for the name calling :^(. Also being a child that scurried under her desk many a time in school practicing our Soviet nuke drills (in retrospect, I don’t really know how that would have helped us if the Soviets would have nuked us), I especially agree with EN. I might add that, IMO that situation is still with us, just lurking and waiting to visit us.
Teresa Sue
Thank You for your kind words
it will be available in hard copy & on Kindle soon
regards,
Jake
@Jake, that makes a lot more sense and a good piece of writing, too. Some vets deserve honor or at least pity for their government using then screwing them. But like in everything else to do with the government we have to keep our eyes open and our brains working and not just puke out their propaganda lines on cue.