NOTE: This post started out to be one thing, then turned into another. So it’s not the most organized piece I’ve ever written. Bear with me. Toward the end, I’m going to ask your thoughts on what might be a worthwhile project.
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I should have remembered this clip from Firefly. Instead, H/T JB for this most elegant method of dealing with a snitch:
Of course, few of us have spaceships or fantastic script writers for dealing with betrayers, so we have to wing it and probably not do so well.
Let’s talk about that.
This post is not about libertarian-turned-drug-war-informant Stacy Litz. Obviously, she’s inspired a lot of people to think about this topic. But I wrote about Stacy here and here and I’d like never to mention her name after today.
To most of us — the ones who didn’t fall into her path — she’s just a fleeting blip on our radar. A year from now somebody utters the name Stacy Litz and we might get a vague feeling of discomfort, a “shouldn’t I remember her?” moment. And that’s that.
She’s too unimportant to dwell on. At the same time, she has lessons to teach, even if they’re not the lessons she intends. Her blog, “I Am a Victim of the American Drug War” is a remarkable record of the mindset of a snitch.
It’s so remarkable — and so likely to disappear once her lawyer learns about it or Stacy herself realizes the impact it’s having — that Bill St. Clair was kind enough to archive it on his computer for posterity. (If her site goes down the memory hole, use your archive manager to extract Bill’s files.)
Let’s learn from her — and the whole damn sad history of snitchery. And let’s teach the young Agitators, Ghosts, and Moles coming up behind us.
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This started out as just another blog entry. Or maybe two or three. I was going to throw out different topics related to snitches, make some observations, add comments from Voice of Experience friends, then ask you guys to add your usual $.02.
Then part-way through it occurred to me that a) the topic is too big for that and b) it’s too important watch it fade away into the blog archive.
Now I’m thinking a book. A booklet, really. In various e-formats. We could maybe put it out on Kindle for $.99 and donate all or part of the funds to LEAP. Or to Stacy’s victims, who are going to need a lot more than the $1,000 they’re asking for right now.
Or we could just make it available for free downloading. I don’t care.
I’m just thinking that “A Complete Guide to Dealing with Snitches, Informers, Informants, Narcs, Finks, Rats and Similar Menaces” could be darned useful. Especially in these USA-STASI days.
The big problem (aside from the work) is that no matter what anybody warns, the careless, naive, and cocky will blithely ignore the advice and stroll into disaster blinkered by their rose-colored glasses. On the other hand, wiser folks don’t need the advice, either because they’ve got good radar or because they educated themselves about the dangers early on.
Still, I don’t know that anybody’s ever compiled the collective snitch wisdom of political activists, gun owners, drug war victims, guerrillas, etc. into a single resource. Maybe we could do that. Maybe somebody could learn from what we here at Living Freedom and others who come over to help out know.
Whether people are interested in doing a project or not, I’m still going to spend part of this week tossing out rat-related topics.
Tomorrow will be “Recognizing a Snitch.”
Thanks to a knowledgeable friend, I’ve also got a good start on “If You Deal with a Snitch, Be Ready to Deal with the Cops.”
If random blog posts is as far as it goes, then that’s as far as it goes. Please add your usual $.02s, which these days are worth more than the fedgov’s $200s. But if anyone would be interested in helping to make it a project and has something to contribute, speak up about that, too.
That is a fantastic idea Claire. Many people could use a reference guide like this to keep themselves out of the states cross-hairs.
I guess the first snitch probably appeared right after the first secret. Someone once said the only way for 2 people to keep a secret is if one is dead. I DO NOT advocate violence against snitches, but I’ve always felt snitching is one of the most damaging, demoralizing activities a person or organization can face. It breaks a trust, and makes brother and sister question each other.
The government has taken the use of snitches to a whole new level (new low?) fighting their war on terror. Think the Miami plot. A few unhappy people get together and complain. They have no plans, no training, no sources, just some gripes. A guy with a legal problem hears about it. He infiltrates, and starts pushing for an action (I know you’ll talk about that in Identifying Snitches). As soon as someone says “yeah, we should do that” the feds swoop in and claim to have stopped another terrorist plot.
Thankfully, the FBI has a 100% success rate in stopping attacks that they initiated.
Remember the phrase “drop a dime” on someone? Well, old time snitching has gone the way of the 10 cent payphone. With RICO and the Patriot Act, mere thoughts are now punishable crimes.
Reminds me of the 1940s-50s era joke: “Communist Party member wanted. 11 FBI agents want to form a party cell.”
It *was* a joke, wasn’t it?
I see (at least) three kinds of snitches, with different motivation for each. The motivation determines to what degree they’re willing to snitch. The _fact_ that they’re willing to snitch and can’t think of a reason not to, or another way to achieve their goals, is a whole ‘nother subject dealing with their value system.
There is:
1) the individual trying to save his own, or his loved ones’, hide (two different motivations here. He might snitch for his family, but not for himself alone.);
2) the individual who wants to achieve a monetary or other gain (such as Jayne);
3) the individual seeking upward mobility, seeing himself as one of the “ruling class”, who’s willing to be a stool pigeon to convince them he belongs in their group.
Mary Lou made a good point in the previous blog when she said, “It’s kind of amusing, though, that she’s an ‘anarchist’.. and put her trust in the COPS?”
I questioned that too. Many people are confused in their beliefs, or confused about how to implement their beliefs. And this does lead to discrepancies in both word and action. If you don’t know what you stand for, you’re not to going to stand very long.
Excellent idea, Claire. Might not save everyone from “snitches,” or from becoming one, but will surely help at least some to think through just what they stand for, and what they’re willing to do or not do about it.
I’m going to forward this post to Boston T. Party. He says he’s retired from “political” writing, but he might be a good one to at least advise others on such a project.
I’ll be glad to help in any way possible.
Good responses, as usual.
Pat, I also came to the three motives conclusion — though snitching to save your own ass vs snitching to save a family member are psychologically very different as you note. On your “upward mobility” motive, I also see sub-groups: people who do it just for a thrill or for revenge or just because they’re busybodies. All three are also currying favor with Authoritah, but their reasons are very different.
I’d call the three motive classes Snitching Under Threat; Snitching for Money; Snitching for Joy.
One of the questions to be answered: Does it matter to intended victims what the snitch is motivated by? If it matters, how?
OTOH, we risk making this too complicated. A booklet — should this turn into one — should be voice of experience as much as possible, but should also be SHORT so that even young activists in a rush could stop and read it.
>Does it matter to intended victims what the snitch is motivated by? If it matters, how?
I think it would be helpful in recognizing potential snitches.
There are people out there who love to stir the pot, they have no other outlet for their small mindedness and it excites them. We all know who they are or we learn very quickly. I have no love for those kind of folks. I would like to see a book/pamphlet/ blog about how to deal with these folks other than shunning them, as I try to do now.
Intention matters. Criminal intent used to be a requirement for conviction. I cannot consider evil a snitch who is doing so out of a however misguided belief that it will save themselves or their family. Untrustworthy, yes. Evil, no. The other two classes that Pat mentioned are criminals. Fear affects some of us very strongly, and the cops are experts at inducing it. Stacy Litz is young, and probably hasn’t yet internalized to never trust a cop, or a politician.
Update: I’ve received emailed offers to help with a project. One from someone with experience formatting for Kindle and CreateSpace. One from an ex-cop and writer who has experience with snitches.
Also, a friendly fellow agitator who knows something about informants has offered his reality checking.
Nearly all agitators have had encounters with snitches — whether they know it or not. I’m sure I have. Carl-Bear wrote about a fairly typical snitch encounter on his blog (which I plan to link to tomorrow). Fortunately, a lot of us have also been either smart or lucky enough to dodge that particular bullet.
We’ll need input from victims, snitches, and cops if we’re to do this as a project and do it right.
Bill St. Clair — Agreed. None of us know what we might do ourselves if the right sort of fear pressure was applied to us. But even if we yielded for some noble or desperate motive (e.g. saving a child) we would sacrifice any expectation of ever being trusted again.
We’d have to earn trust back through long and arduous work — IF we could earn it back at all. And we’d have to humbly accept that we might never be trusted or loved again — that we might be shunned or even killed for our deeds.
I think the biggest thing that’s raising so much animosity against Stacy Litz isn’t that she got terrified, screwed up, and snitched. It’s how she’s presenting herself. She’s like Jayne in the early stages of that Firefly clip.
Will you consider LE infiltrators as snitches? I think they will have some of the same characteristics but be differentiated in the fact that they will have arrest authority and might have ready backup in some situations.
Most of our yonger generation have a difficult time understanding that the Cops can and will lie to them, are legally authorized to do so and will say anything to get you to cross a line. This also leads to the Cops perjuring themselves for a bust and when in court.
My rule of thumb for snitches and busy-bodies (troublemakers) is that if they are to curious, to willing to help, or ask questions that seem to deep for their abilities/commitment to shy away. I also would disavow anyone pushing or inciting violence etc. Don’t trust people you don’t know.
As a part of my profession, I was trained in the Reid Technique of Interview and Interrogation. It is the training provided to almost every police officer who will ever question a suspect. Books are available on the basics, courses for the more detailed. I can’t recommend familiarity with Reid enough to everyone whose life choices may cause them to have interaction with the police.
When I went for training, I was the only non-cop in the room. Picture this, ex-biker, long hair, beard, tattoos, earrings, my moustache is longer than all the head hair in the room glued together. During practice, I was standing menacingly over a cop cowering in a chair as I barked questions like “so how long has it been since you stopped beating your wife? What? You never stopped?” Having been the one put in the chair in real life before, that experience alone was worth way more than the cost of admission.
While there’s a lot of stuff out there about the things to do when confronted with arrest, there’s limited info about how to withstand questioning. My teenagers hated the fact that I went for interrogation training, until they started learning the technique themselves. Knowing something about Reid and the techniques cops will use make it easier to withstand should a person be in that situation.
“Does it matter to intended victims what the snitch is motivated by? If it matters, how?”
The outcome doesn’t matter, no; nor does motivation lessen the responsibility. But the motivation of the snitcher _might_ allow forgiveness and understanding in the victim, if he’s so inclined (which might also – for good or bad – take the burden of the snitch off the shoulders of the snitcher).
Hey Claire,
With regard to Dealing with snitches, informers, informants, narcs, finks, rats and similar menaces…
I would suggest that we look at this experience as a wakeup call. The experience of Stacy Litz shows a need for preparation in survival while under police custody/interrogation. As Sun Tzu wrote “If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle ” Let us just say that Ms Litz was woefully unprepared for the realities of her actions when she was caught and paid the piper for it.
When a person is arrested all it takes is a few simple things to make them talk. For example one tactic could be… Step one, the subject starts by being left in a holding cell for 48 hours in total isolation to think about what has happened. The only contact being a guard who simply brought her food but did not talk to her. Next step she is left in a holding cell with seven or more rough female characters for 24 to 48 hours. Note there was a good chance that one or more of her fellow prisoners were undercover police officers listening. Then in interrogation she was told that she faces spending the next 10 to 20 years of her life incarcerated with these same people. Next step, a life saver is tossed to her in the form of her being asked to give up some very minor information about the organization. After this was done more info was asked for on the promise that her earlier transgressions would remain secret or the subject would be outed as a snitch… After all The Subject had a reputation to protect.
The second thing that is needed is to start preaching not for a bug out kit but a ‘go to ground’ kit. You should always expect that within 24 to 48 hours the person who was caught will roll over. Thus there is the need for a grab bag with all the items needed for one to go to ground.
Last always keep in mind that there is no honor among thieves so if one of your buddies gets caught you can expect a knock on the door within a few days. If you think that your friend will not toss you under a bus to save his own skin think again.
The IRA used to bust a snitch’s knee caps with a steel bar. And so when everyone saw them hobbling down the street they knew why. Not fatal but it sure got the message across. Appeals to conscience, shaming, shunning, etc. aren’t likely going to be very effective or persuasive to self-absorbed and remorseless a-holes like Litz or her ilk.
One of the reasons I lost a lot of my belief in libertarianism as a viable way of life is shown by these discussions about matters of betrayal and treachery and how to deter and punish it that end up becoming lost in an infinite loop of threads and blog posts devoted to the picking of nits about NAP, ZAP, etc.
Say whatever else you want about fanatical Islamists, or La Cosa Nostra mobsters or political extremists like the IRA but their methods are effective. Snitch on them and there will be a price to pay. The beta anarcho-whatevers merely ban you from their website. Creeps like Litz feel so free to be snitches if it suits their purpose because the consequences are so small. Do you think an admitted snitch would show up to party later with the very people she snitched on in attendance if they were mobbed up, IRA, or Islamic Brotherhood members instead of libs? Some how I doubt it.
“Will you consider LE infiltrators as snitches? I think they will have some of the same characteristics but be differentiated in the fact that they will have arrest authority and might have ready backup in some situations.”
Matt — Been thinking about that. I’m pretty sure the answer has to be yes.
just waiting — Knew about the Reid technique, but have never had the misfortune to experience it. Ah … do we now have a project advisor in that area? May I email you and put you on the list as a possible person to interview?
Certainly!
Go Claire! The E-book is a great idea.
FWIW – I posted a 1995 article I wrote for Playboy on government informants at my blog. It was bad then, but it is gotten worse in the meantime.
http://jimbovard.com/blog/2012/05/14/freedom-activists-as-government-entrapment-targets/
The proliferation of entrapment represents the triumph of an authoritarian concept of justice–as if government should be allowed to do anything it chooses to catch anyone it thinks might be a criminal. As Gail Greaney wrote in 1992 in the Notre Dame Law Review, “With each case, it appears that the line of intolerable police conduct is being pushed further toward the outlandish.”
Read up on things like hypnosis and social engineering. I’ve seen them used in real life, in real situations. They were used a lot by politicians during the 2008 campaign season. (I have since refused to listen to anything politician in a recording. I’ll read transcriptions if I think it’s important but there’s no way in hell I’ll listen to them. Thus, while those tactics are probably still being used, I have not personally witnessed them.)
I also used to train customer service agents, and had to try and teach them to resist social engineering. It’s amazing how easy it can be to get someone to tell you a secret, sometimes without them even realizing it. One girl had to be fired after she gave away account information to a caller, and even after having her listen to the call recording, she still insists that she was just repeating back information he’d given her, when really she vollunteered it.
During one of my college classes a few years ago, a state representative came in to give a talk. I had been reading up on covert hypnosis out of curiosity, but this was the first time i recognized it being used. He made it sound like he was presenting both sides of an argument in a rational, factual way and letting the students decide for themselves. He wasn’t. The “facts” he presented were wrong, but the way he presented them, he wasn’t so much making an argument as he was building an argument in people’s minds. It was beautiful. It was artistic. It was disturbing!!! Afterward it was weird talking to the other students, their brains refused to consider any facts that contradicted his speech. For the rest of their lives, the 30 people in that room are going to reject a certain view on a certain controversial subject, for no reason other than “Rep. Black said so.”
(Not saying what the subject was because I don’t want to sidetrack the conversation.)
Social engineering is one area where those of us who are slightly autistic probably have an advantage. It relies on those unspoken social rules that autistics have trouble picking up on.
On the subject of Snitching Under Threat: That may be nearly impossible to protect against, except by keeping your secrets to yourself. Think carefully, what kind of person would you be most likely to trust? Someone of integrity. What does a person of integrity do when the person they love more than anything in the world is being tortured before their very eyes? They do whatever it takes.
Nearly every woman could be broken by hurting her children. Nearly every man could be broken by hurting his wife. To be honest, if someone put my secrets above the safety of their own family, they probably wouldn’t be the sort of person I’d want to hang out with.
(Exceptions possible for those whose families are truly horrible, but even then not guaranteed.)
The only way to truly keep a secret is to keep it to yourself.
This is getting too heavy for a Monday.
Jim, that quote about the proliferation of entrapment belongs in the book! So does your observation in the Playboy article about governments that have banned it.
Ellendra — Yeah, pretty heavy for a Monday. But thanks for the input.
I expect very few of us are likely to face situations where cops are actually torturing or threatening to kill our loved ones. I know that technique is used. It was in the Soviet Union. I’ll bet “our” soldiers are using it in Afghanistan. But for us, more likely, the threat will be more indirect — “How would you like your mother to find out you’ve been doing X?” “How are you going to take care of your kids if you go to jail?”
On the hypnosis … I suspect mostly that would be another book. However, the persuasiveness of snitches and the techniques they use to be believable when they’re standing there plotting your destruction … now those we should certainly cover.
With things like hypnosis and social engineering, it’s theoretically possible to BE the snitch and not realize it.
Claire,
Maybe you are looking at a series of booklets?
1) How to recognize a snitch.
2) Countermeasures against snitches.
3) How to avoid becoming a snitch.
4) What to do in the aftermath of being ratted out by a snitch.
Matt — Part of you is a mindreader. The four topics you outline are exactly the ones I’ve got in the outline I started this morning.
I’m going to work on that a little more, then send it off for that ex-cop volunteer to edit, expand, and generally kick around.
But four separate booklets? Nope. No way, no thank you. Two reasons: First is that this needs to be kept as short and snappy as possible so that even young, impatient activists will want to read it. Second, I have my limits on what I’m willing to do in a “public service” project. One booklet it’ll be — unless somebody else out there wants to take it over and take it in a different direction.
You can learn quite a bit about snitches by studying the government’s war on outlaw motorcycle clubs.
For instance, in this book: http://www.amazon.com/Out-Bad-Donald-Charles-Davis/dp/1467950831/ref=cm_cr_pr_pb_t
The anti-freedom statist types have won some points by turning Stacy Litz into an example of what most anyone is capable of. I believe strongly in personal freedom and letting people alone to live their lives. That said, I am pretty sure that if I were arrested …. I would break down into a blubbering pile of snot. Probably rat out everyone I had ever met. Luckily I don’t know much …….. but I could invent things.
.
Don’t ever forget what the real focus should be …… the slavemasters who take what they pry from snitches and then abuse sophonts in so many ways. The slavemasters are happy to see the freedom-loving slaves turn on each other and start looking for snitches. Thus the slaves are helping enforce their own slavery. I am sad that I do not have a solution for t his sorry state of affairs.
.
I think that the love of freedom and personal actualization will win in the end. I believe that humans are becoming more rational and caring and accepting. I won’t live to see what I desire. Many more centuries may be required before humans grow beyond tribalism, love of authority, and all the other lizard brain defects they have. 99guspuppet
Claire – I’m really doubtful that there’s any moderately reliable way to identify and insure against snitches and provocateurs. The best one might do is to have an overabundance of caution and skepticism – but of course – that means that some non-threats will be treated as a threat.
This thread from the last few days has allowed me to dredge up memories from over a couple decades – ranging from activists to OMGs, and the regular aspects of the trade – and I’ve been reminded of a large handful of cases where people were caught up in this nonsense and paid high prices as a result. I count myself fortunate that I was never in the crosshairs – but it probably had more to do with sheer luck than anything else. It helps if you’re a smart and savvy person with some experience – but I don’t think that can readily be communicated strictly within a booklet.
I’d rather not be depressing here – but the types of people we’re discussing have large budgets, great toys, and a captive audience to enable them in whatever mischief they can dream up.
There is – of course – the option of ‘keeping your nose clean’ – but that’s getting harder and harder to do these days.
Plug Nickel Outfit — I hear you, but I still think there’s hope.
True, nobody can write a guaranteed “Keep out of jail” manual. I know people are going to continue to fall victim to snitches and entrapment schemes. With tyrant agencies becoming ever-more-ruthless, courts excusing their most egregious behaviors, and funding always available, things are likely to get worse before (or if) they ever get better.
Still, despite all the money and “toys,” a quick look at the news shows that a lot of people are being taken in by the simplest old trick in the books. They’re getting smacked because they didn’t educate themselves to some of the most basic, long-known principles — like “You can always tell the FBI agent; he’s the one who keeps trying to get you to bomb something.” (Although these days it’s more like “… get you to bomb something, provide the materials, suggest the target, and otherwise hand-hold you into disaster” — a technique that would have been thrown straight out of court a few decades ago.)
We may not be able to stop people from stumbling into trouble. But we can at least put the collected wisdom of cops, victims, and snitches out there in simple form.
Claire,
Lots to think about here, as is your custom. Please excuse some random thoughts in no order.
Definitions would be important here. Snitch, stool pigeon, informant, whistle blower, labor spy, “deep throat”, agent provocateur, public citizen, etc. Some might be thought good, depending upon perspective. Are you suggesting a libertarian guide for a code of conduct, comparable to Omerta or the Blue Code of Silence?
Perhaps some historical research to find comparability, such as E. Germany’s Stassi or the Warsaw Ghetto and the concentration camps. Plus the Crime Stoppers Confidential Hotline or dropping a dime on drunk and dangerous drivers.
One way could be as you have written about before, in the distinction between “mala in se” and “mala prohibita”.
I did not know until I pulled a wiki about the Snitching project and the Stop Snitching t-shirt campaign.That’s heavy.
Interesting times.
Tahn
Tahn — Thoughtful as always. And I can see you just consulted the same thesaurus I did. 🙂
In a very short manual, I suspect we’re going to have to leave out a lot of the history of snitching and snooping and a lot of definitions. Perhaps we can put links and book titles into an appendix for those who want to look farther. But to keep this down to booklet size (and therefore keep it readable even to people with five-minute attention spans) I think we have to stick with: Here’s what’s going on right now; here are the signs you might see; here’s how to protect yourself; if you get in trouble, here’s some advice.
In the outline I’ve started — which is subject to change by “co-conspirators” — I have made a distinction between snitches who rat out the non-violent and good citizens who try to save others from the violent. But I think that’s about as deep as we can go.
I don’t have time to read all the comments, so forgive me if I repeat someone else’s thoughts.
You mentioned two types of people who might read the book/pamphlet: the rose-colored glasses folks who won’t pay attention, and the wise who don’t need it.
I’d like to advocate for a third group of which I am a member: the inexperienced, but wary. I foresee a rise in snitches as the FedGov looks to increase its power and its ability to intimidate.
More of us will need this book as time goes on than have ever needed it before.
“I have made a distinction between snitches who rat out the non-violent and good citizens who try to save others from the violent.”
Thank you for making that distinction. I was starting to think that, in the rush to find ways to stop snitches, the fact that some secrets are harmfull to keep might get lost. And, yes, ok, I was starting to worry about being lumped into the “snitches” catagory myself. 2 weeks ago I found an unmarked grave on my property and called the police in. It wasn’t something I was willing to try and deal with by myself.
Oh my, Ellendra. You can’t just drop a comment like that one, then go rambling off! An unmarked grave on your property? Can you tell us what this turned out to be?
It’s still a mystery. The deputy who came out said that even though it looks exactly like a grave, there were no murders or missing people, so he decided it’s most likely someone’s weird idea of a joke, and not worth having the CSI team come out to dig it up. But he told me that if I decided to dig it up myself and find “anything interesting” that I should call him back. I’m still trying to work up the nerve. It’s exactly where I’d been planning to dig a root cellar, because it’s in one of the spots where the roll of the land makes it invisible unless you’re right next to it. Which is probably what whoever dug it was thinking.
I was just glad to get one of the friendly, easy-going cops that seem to be the norm around here, rather than the kind I read about online.
Geez, well maybe cops get a lot of “unmarked grave” calls. But even without any local missing persons, I’d wonder if it were possible that some killer brought a victim in from far away.
Maybe you and I are paranoid. Maybe cops really do get a lot of calls like that. (A friend of mine who used to be a 911 dispatcher told me he once got a call from a woman in a screaming panic at discovering the remains of a “murder victim” — which turned out to be a pile of elk bones.)
Or maybe somebody buried their dog on your property. But I think I’d feel a little bit abandoned if a LEO told me to dig it up and let him know if I found anything “interesting”!
“Interesting”! Yikes!
Coming in late … but a short snappy booklet sounds like a good idea … but, even tho the Litz situation has inspired this idea, I doubt if theres any way to really ‘protect’ or ‘identify’ snitches like that pathetic young girl (I’d LIKE to think that I’d be smart enough to figure out that she was a lightweight wuss who’d cave in at the first hint of trouble, but apparently she fooled some very shrewd older activists). And this was ‘just’ a drug bust, after all, not the state trying to bust a ring of freedom activists. The answer to how to avoid the Litzes of this world .. if you are engaging in ‘illegal business’ … be very careful (I’ve read some of her blog, no way would I have ever bought drugs from her (if I used drugs,lol). What is much more interesting to me, personally, is how to spot the agent provacateurs and govt spies in our midst, and how to ‘out them’.
Claire, that would have to have been a very long dog. And whoever dug that hole had to go to an awful lot of work just to reach that spot, my land is not easy to navigate. (I think that’s part of it’s charm, but that’s also why it was cheap enough I could afford it!) They would have either had to climb up an 8-foot dropoff through a patch of wild roses, or else climb down a 12-foot dropoff through a mix of brambles, nettles, and weed trees. Either path they took, there’s just no way to get there by accident. And it’s so far off the main road that even with detailed directions it’s darn near impossible to find. The deputy ended up at a neighbor’s house and had to follow me over. Believe me, I’ve been trying to come up with some way that a 7×4 rectangular hole could be innocent, but I just haven’t found one yet.
Wow, Ellendra. That’s definitely weird.
OTOH, since somebody went to all that trouble … maybe it’s somebody’s cache of survival goods, guns, and gold. You never know until you start digging.
Ellendra – Any idea how long that “grave” had been there? I mean did it look freshly dug? If you were planning to use the area, you must have seen it recently. Sounds like the cop wasn’t too anxious to dig it up either.
~~~
For ‘outing’ spies and protecting one’s own group, Heinlein/Prof had a good idea for fighting the War on Tyranny in “The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress” when he set up ‘cells of three’, wherein only the closest knew each other and branched outward to overlap. That’s an oversimplification – and we don’t have Mycroft the Computer to help! – but something like it might save organizations from being infiltrated. Of course they would have to be less transparent than the internet would allow.
For some reason the title reminds me of another title, The Hitchhikers Guide To The Galaxy.
A couple of People here basically said, all ya gotta do is keep your nose clean and you’ll be ok.
As if.
It might be the prevailing word on the street, but it’s wrong.
I’m guessing they haven’t read Three Felonies a Day
How the Feds Target the Innocent – By Harvey Silverglate
or
Channeling the Soviet Union: How U.S. Federal Criminal Law Has Reincarnated Beria – by William L. Anderson
and
How the Feds Imprison the Innocent – by Paul Craig Roberts
“Federal judges, an increasing number of whom are former federal prosecutors, permit the prosecution of Americans for crimes that the defendants did not know were crimes, crimes that never before existed until the federal prosecutor brought the charge.”
Lots of work out there for snitches. Lowest of the low.
@Pat: I’m pretty sure it was dug last summer. The grass was covering it but the soil was still very soft. I wasn’t able to get out to my land very often last year (still getting my ducks in a row so I can build my house there), but I know it wasn’t there last June. The grass on my land is pretty aggressive, so it wouldn’t have taken longer than a couple of months for it to grow over both the grave and the pile of extra dirt (it looks like the person got it mostly filled in, but then was either interrupted or decided to stop, because there’s still a big pile if dirt on the uphill side of the hole, and the “grave” itself is still about 18 inches lower then the soil level around it.)
@Claire: In case you’re right, what is the convention for finding an unknown person’s cache on your property, when whoever put it there did not have permission to put it there? Is it sort of finders/keepers, or pretend not to notice, or what?
@Ellendra
Dig it up and solve the mystery. You can’t deal with whatever it is until you know what it is. Ignorance is rarely the answer to anything. The possibility exists that it could be just a prank.
@Woody: working on that. The idea of digging up a body freaks me out just a little, so I’m kind of having to steel myself for that. This is why I decided not to become a PI, even though I took classes on it and I love solving mysteries. I found out I just didn’t have the stomach for it.
“@Claire: In case you’re right, what is the convention for finding an unknown person’s cache on your property, when whoever put it there did not have permission to put it there? Is it sort of finders/keepers, or pretend not to notice, or what?”
Ellendra — Yegads. I don’t think there IS a convention on finding somebody’s cache on your property. I certainly wouldn’t pretend not to notice. Whoever did that put you through a lot of concern and inconvenience and violated your private property.
I’d really be surprised if it turns out to be somebody’s cache — especially since you’ve described the hole as only half filled in. I can’t imagine anybody treating valuable stuff that way. Even if they’d been interrupted or run out of time, surely they’d have come back to finish the job and disguise the dig.
But if it did turn out to be somebody’s valuable items in there, I’d personally be torn between “finders/keepers” and “what if the guy who dug that hole is really mean and belongs to an outlaw biker gang?”
Interestingly creepy mystery you have on your hands …
I’d be inclined to think it’s not a body, especially as it’s only partially filled. Surely some animal would have found it early on.
Well, I did a little digging (re-digging?) this afternoon and haven’t found anything yet, but I don’t have much stamina to speak of so I didn’t get very far. Talking about it here helped me get up my nerve, so thank you guys for the encouragement, I needed that! I’ll try and do a little more digging every time I go out there, if I don’t find anything then at least I’ll have a start on my root cellar.
Thanks for the report, Ellendra. I’m sure a lot of people here will be very curious to know what you discover. May it be something good and not … well, you know.
It also occurs to me, Ellendra, that if heaven forbid you do find a body in that patch of dirt, the sheriff’s office is going to be extremely sorry their deputy didn’t take you more seriously and take steps to better preserve and examine the site. Who knows what evidence might be lost as you dig?
Heh, I’m thinking it’s probably just from a dog digging a hole.
Or due to a busy ground hog.
Or kids.
Hope she doesn’t get freaked out, whatever it is.
Very few dogs dig in perfect rectangles :p
One more thought: If someone realized it’s private property (or decided to relocate), he might have _removed_ a cache. And probably wouldn’t take time to refill the hole properly.