The following is a question I know we’ve all pondered. Yet in a way it’s imponderable. So we tend to come up with glib, macho, chest-thumping answers. Or we don’t answer at all because silence is the wiser choice. Still, it’s on a lot of minds.
UnReconstructed asked the question in its fullest, most individual (and most ironic) form. I’ll try to paraphrase it into more mundane, more cautious, reality.
Fourth question: At some point, political Intolerable Acts become truly, personally intolerable. The long train of abuses has to halt. We’ve already seen people (including perhaps ourselves) submit to more abuse in this generation than we’d ever have imagined. So a multi-parter:
1. Where does the train of abuses stop? 2. What actions by We the People are likely to stop it? 3. What are some of the practical issues in fighting tyranny head-on? 4. What are the ethical issues for people who don’t believe in initiating aggression?
In fact, the line has been crossed many times… AND. THEY. KNOW IT. A war should be going on right now. (I think they are now, deliberately, trying to push us into starting it.)
#1: The train of abuses will not stop until war has started, and #2. Only war will stop it. (See all commentary in The Rollback of Tyranny.)
#3. Practical issues? I can’t answer that. Personally – I don’t know what circumstances will precipitate it, but I _will know_ when the time comes. They may come for me, my family, a friend, or somewhere in the community. Or someone I respect too much to allow injustice to continue. How practical that will be, is anyone’s guess.
#4: ZAP doesn’t disallow self-defense, and self-defense doesn’t
compromise ZAP; there is no issue here. Jews believe in eye-for-an-eye, Catholics believe that self-defense is allowed for oneself, family or country, and even Gandhi, a pacifist, was not against the use of guns to protect a people from tyranny. (Only some Protestants would turn the other cheek.)
*Is ZAP any less, sacred than religion?*
1. War might do it. It might also just take a hard collapse of the economy, one where very little is going in for taxes and where the majority of the population starts to just ignore the govt.
2. Given the global situation and the drive for a global govt it will probably be warfare though.
3. Trigger could be a heavy handed response to a natural disaster in a “Red” state, or response to riots in major cities that have the responders come down hard on the people resisting the rioters. If Blue helmets show up in a law enforcement/military role. Triggers could be many. Armed resistance to inoculation could be one as well.
4. ZAP? One would have to decide what “self” defense means. How far does it go? Does it include family, friends, community? Is there room to defend the weak and defenseless, those that seek your protection or refuge?
I think the Protestants that would turn the other cheek would be regulated to the poor souls that accept the incorrect dogma that the church and their members are somehow subordinate to the government.
Been listenining to a history course for history teachers on ‘the causes of the civil war ‘. (culturenet.com ) . T here are general similarities now – 1860 brings a treacherous demagogue to the WH who a large segment cannot relate to, agrarian vs industrial, threatened domestic economy disruption, geographic polarization, the alignment of new immigrants with the Fed. We just need some state with SouthCarolina’s fortitude to make things slide. Now the gun grabbers enter the stage and the plot thickens.
For a decent guess at how the collapse occurs I can recomend the books American Apocalypse I and II by a cat named Nova. http://theamericanapocalypse.blogspot.com/
While a surburban beltway perspective, it has a good view of economic, then govt then societal collapse.
” It might also just take a hard collapse of the economy, one where very little is going in for taxes and where the majority of the population starts to just ignore the govt. ”
Part 1 of this, is currently a work in progress. The crossover point between deficit/debt and revenue – has been “too close for comfort” already. Cutting spending could be a way to keep the train wreck from happening… but we all know how much political resistance there is to this. I saw something yesterday – eyewitness from Europe – that sounded a lot like Ferfal’s descriptions. The MSM just isn’t telling us. There is a lot more civil unrest and disruption of daily life going on, right now. The author said that for all intents & purposes, Greece is already in civil war.
The NWO scheme is going to require astronomical sums of money. Those that have it are doing what they can to protect it… the people who thought this was such a good idea are beginning to pass on to their own personal utopia in the sky. I don’t see this being feasible in the next 50 years.
1 – many people are at the point, that gun control bills ARE the line in the sand; the last straw. They have different ways of coping with that.
2 – I have this daydream: that some in Congress will start calling it like it is and start a movement within the gov itself, to hold criminals in the gov accountable for their acts. Will this actually happen? ::shrug:: Who knows? but a girl can dream…
3 – The practical issues are logistics and communications – secure communications. Without this, not even an asymmetric force will be effective.
4 – The ethical issues are a whole ‘nother post. Personally, I’m focused on defense for the time being. I don’t see much benefit to outweigh the risks of an offensive, containment strategy at this point. I think about it, off and on… and realize that conditions may change, making this necessary. There’s the difficulty of accomplishing the practical issues in #3, first.
Part 2 = ” and where the majority of the population starts to just ignore the govt. ”
Matt, another – is it possible that we are close to this point already? Across many different local communities? I think this is also a “work in progress”, at least in our community. But a tax revolt would have to contend with the real “enforcement arm” of the gov — the IRS. And those guys just immediately go for the short hairs over simple appearances of wrong-doing – albeit slowly and ponderously due to their over-complex bureaucracy and thousands of pages of their own tax law that they are unfamiliar with. The only glimmer of hope I have regarding them… is that the Obamacare regs will completely scramble the ability of the IRS to effectively pursue individuals at all.
I don’t know the answers to any of your questions.
What I do know is that I probably won’t see that final tipping point coming. Yet, after it arrives it will seem as obvious as a train bearing down on me. That doesn’t mean the good guys win- the government extremists are probably better prepared for the war- after all, they’ve been stockpiling the stolen supplies for many years.
My personal line in the sand is probably remote gun detection equipment deployed in places I am likely to be. At that point I really do think it will be “Claire Wolfe Time”.
Observe, assess, plan, execute plan, reassess. Repeat. Would you believe that this is the basis for all nursing practice? Or at least it used to be. Same for much of the military and other disciplines. It just makes sense.
We can all see what’s happened and have a fair idea of what might happen soon. Each one must assess for themselves what is needed for survival and those whom they will trust to be “in their foxhole.” Plans need to be flexible and realistic (with principles/ethics decided ahead of time). The reassessment is vital to make any of it work, as situations and people shift.
Some will do these things without initiating force. Some will not. Nobody except that individual can control that. This thing is going down… and nobody has a crystal ball.
I intend to do my very best to survive. I will also do my level best to adhere to the principle of non-aggression. I can’t do much more than that.
P-PV,
It might be the IRS that triggers it. If one does not own real estate to take, has no cash in the bank to seize and little on books income to attach, then the IRS would resort to seizing the person first. Might be over refusal to pay the obamacare taxes. If done in the wrong community, resistance might be met by the local Sheriff siding on the side of the citizen and then grow from there.
Then again, all it might take is a few extra-judicial drone strikes in the U.S.
ML, said, “Observe, assess, plan, execute plan, reassess. Repeat. ”
That is closely aligned with Boyds OODA Loop = Observe, Orient, Decide and Act.
In my opinion, Henry Bowman did not violate the NAP. He observed the actions of lawless state actors and dealt with them in a most efficient manner. Not initiating force is not about waiting until you have been struck to respond. Waiting too long to respond can result in your own demise.
The analysis offered by Jack Veggie is spot on. Demagogues demonizing liberty lovers (particularly gun owners) are attempting to incite a response whereby they will make the case that their position is justified.
Tread very carefully.
Well, I think this fits well here. Barring Congress actually getting it together to indict criminals who have broken their oaths to uphold the Constitution and the laws of the land… (a favorite pipe dream)…
I can only hold on to the idea that the people have shown amazing forbearance, patience, and tolerance. I recognize that the people did not “start this”, also.
http://wsimpson.wordpress.com/2013/03/07/mr-president-gentleman-and-ladies-take-heed-we-will-be-pushed-no-farther/
A lot of great and thoughtful responses. Mine isn’t as succinct or fully formed.
My dystopian novel series addresses these very issues, so I ponder them a lot.
My own real-life opinions are similar to my work, but like my novels, my thoughts on these issues are a work-in-progress. Like others have said, in essence, “you’ll know when you get to it.”
Two abuses not yet mentioned: Restricting travel. Restricting internet access. Those would be big ones for us.
1. It will not stop, but will just morph into a different version of abuse. As soon as the train of abuses begins to anger enough people, there will be a huge false flag – so big that it terrifies many of the “dissenters” into silent obedience because they want to live. After a time, perhaps, there will be those who will have finally had enough, then…
2. Organized resistance (but not war-not yet) begins, perhaps modeled after the WWII Polish underground and other historical resistance groups.
3. Tyrants have money, power, and the benefit of a surveillance state. Bringing down the technical systems that run their their “machine” is of of the goals of my novel’s hero, but it will take a lot of hard work by brilliant people willing to risk their lives.
4. My protagonist and his friends struggle with this very issue. They do not want to use evil methods to fight evil. They will defend themselves, their loved ones and community, and they will try their best to adhere to the non-aggression principle. However, some of them may initiate violence against one or two of the ruling class to send a message, but not without a mental struggle over it.
What concerns me is this: at one time, oppressed peoples could form a stealth resistance movement rather easily. But now, it would be much more difficult. I often think of Orwell and 1984. In some ways, we’re not there yet, but in other ways, I think we’ve surpassed it.
“What concerns me is this: at one time, oppressed peoples could form a stealth resistance movement rather easily. But now, it would be much more difficult. I often think of Orwell and 1984. In some ways, we’re not there yet, but in other ways, I think we’ve surpassed it.”
I’m not so sure a stealth resistance movement would be difficult. But it would take secrecy. And it would take knowing who to trust. We have relied on the internet for some time now, and by default the internet is ‘noisy’ with words: we talk a lot, we say what we’re thinking, and we tend to feel insulated and isolated against the world because we can’t see each other. But a stealth movement would not – and could not – rely on the internet.
In fact old-fshioned stealth resistance is the only kind that would probably work, until a *truly secure* electronic communication system was established. The PTB encourage social networking so they can gather data for free. They like us using SKYPE and emails and smartphones, and they use ‘clouds’ and corporations to find us. They would not look for or recognize resistance a la 19th or 20th Century (especially at first), because they expect people to communicate with modern conveniences for the fastest contact.
I agree with Pat that the powers that be are in charge of how it happens and when it happens. They will create the scenario that causes a revolt in their timing.
I also agree with Mama Liberty that the ethical decisions need to be made ahead of time. Life and death should not be decided in the heat of the moment.
Personally, my line in the sand is a requirement to do something that violates my Christian beliefs. As distasteful as tyranny is, many things can (and I believe should) be tolerated. When that line is crossed, civil disobedience is my chosen response.
I cannot ignore the Sermon on the Mount [particularly Matthew 5:38-48], and therefore pray that I have the strength to keep my disobedience non-violent, just as the early Christians did. My eternal life is more important than my earthly one.
Good points, Pat.
My novels have a stealth resistance movement modeled after the WWII resistance groups. They rarely use the internet for communication/organization. But physical movement and money movement is still tricky for them because of electronic surveillance.
I often think about the Polish and French resistance and wonder if they’d been able to survive if their enemy had the technology of today.
Smile,
And here I thought that my question was being tastefully overlooked.
I have devoted quite a bit of thought to this particular hypothetical subject.
Some of my answers to this :
1. The train of abuses stops when it gets to *your* door. Or it doesn’t and you let it roll over you, and you live until another train comes along. Let this continue long enough, and you will be herded onto a cattle car. By this I mean, doing something drastic has the potential to alter your life in very bad ways. Your nice easy warm bed, car with gas, and comfortable life might just be replaced with hard metal and stone walls, bad food, horrible people, and a needle filled with Pentobarbitol. So, very few people will undertake such a step on someone else’s behalf, no matter how just the cause might be. Its easy to say ‘from my cold dead hands’, but when facing cops at the door with backup, who will really go down with guns blazing?
2. We the people *could* stop this if there were enough folk to wake up our glorious overlords. That’s not terribly likely to happen. Despite the encouraging signs of folk turning away from the TV led mentality, the numbers of awake and aware folk are probably too small to issue a wake up call. Any publicly identifiable effort will be spun by the media as either marginal ‘tea party silliness’ or terrorism. Anything more serious will be dealt with by utter ruthlessness….like that rogue cop in California, like the Branch Davidians, like Randy Weaver. They will WACO anybody who is unfortunate enough to be caught in a standoff. And they will spin it as drug dealers, or child molesters or whatever sounds horrible and heinous on a 30 second sound bite.
We the people will probably begin to resist one by one. In the Henry Bowman scenario, Henry didn’t start out deliberately to take down the ATF. He shot intruders who were ‘robbing’ his friends house, and he later found out that they were ATF. Once he realized *that* he said ‘After the first one, the rest are free’. And then, once the story became public on the news, bunches of folk began taking personal action themselves. The point of *that* is that this was an army of thousands of individual actions. This may already be happening.** How would you know?** The media almost certainly will not report on many events. Or it may be spun into non recognition.
3. A concentrated effort will be crushed. The militia thing doesn’t work. Way too easy to infiltrate. Communications are monitored everywhere to watch for organized efforts at terrorism. Study the resistance fighters in occupied countries. Very small groups. Low grade action (monkeywrenching). When the opportunity presents itself, take out a high profile icon. Individually. Without telling anybody.
4. Personally, I believe that the ZAP is not being violated by pulling a Henry Bowman. The aggression has already been initiated by TPTB. But your mileage may vary.
We the people are beginning to look at some very hard choices. I can’t really blame anyone who wants to go elsewhere to live. I choose not to, because of any number of reasons. Going the Ex-pat route simply looks to me like delaying the inevitable. At least the US has a long and distinguished history of armed rebellion and assassinations. The more time goes by, the better it gets for we the people, because there are a LOT of people who will soon be in the Greek situation, and will be old enough so that they might not have that much to lose by pulling a Henry Bowman. From my view its a race against time. Can they disarm we the people before the Social security/Medicare runs out?
Those hogs are looking pretty hungry.
#4 is the easiest question: there are NO ethical issues because we didn’t initiate the aggression. Because “initiate” is the key word. Those who would take away our natural rights are the initiators of force. Pushing back, even violently, doesn’t present any sort of ethical problem. The ZAP isn’t a suicide pact; self-defense and the defense of others is perfectly proper within it.
As to the others, I don’t know. The line should have been crossed already; the fact that we’re not already at war is telling. Perhaps there simply are not enough people in the country who really care about freedom, as long as they can have their reality TV and Twitter accounts. Overt gun grabs might be a trigger, but somehow I doubt it (for that majority of people, anyway). I suspect that only a massive economic collapse, followed by a breakdown in civil order, will do it. But then the rioters in the streets will be welfare addicts angry at the loss of their benefits. Which is more or less what’s happening in Greece now: they want more government, not less.
So this is going to have to be a guerrilla war, which will be long and bloody. Attacking tyranny head-on would be suicidal. But I disagree that groups need to be organized or communicate. In many respects a more effective strategy would be for individuals or very tiny groups, acting alone without any sort of coordination, to engage in acts of sabotage and/or reprisal. There is simply no defense where the resistance has no central control, no governing strategy. Capturing one guerrilla presents no threat to the movement.
In 1776 the British army was the most powerful in the world, but in the long run it couldn’t stand against small bands of guerrilla fighters harassing them at every turn. George Washington’s army won few engagement; most of the real damage was done by irregulars. The same is true for Afghanis fighting against the Russians, the British, the Turks, etc. (and now us), going back for centuries.
It’s time for each of us, individually and quietly, to start throwing some sand into the gears!
water lily: Read – or re-read – “Out Of The Grey Zone” http://www.amazon.com/RebelFire-Gray-Zone-Claire-Wolfe/dp/0964230488/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1362684760&sr=8-1&keywords=out+of+the+grey+zone for some stealth tactics that can be used in the electronic age.
” But I disagree that groups need to be organized or communicate. In many respects a more effective strategy would be for individuals or very tiny groups, acting alone without any sort of coordination, to engage in acts of sabotage and/or reprisal. There is simply no defense where the resistance has no central control, no governing strategy. Capturing one guerrilla presents no threat to the movement. ”
It’s not hard to say – oops, I was wrong! 😉
But then, I’m going to counter with the idea that most of these kinds of Invisible Armies have sought control over much smaller geographical areas that the continental 48… and point out that without some kind of communication, how ya gonna know there’s something that needs to be disrupted?
PPV, you’re certainly correct about the size of the geographical area involved. I think the answer to that is that the resistance movements are necessarily local and their objective is not to take over the whole US but just their own state or region. Also, don’t forget the fact that it’s really big for us means it’s really big for them, too. Having a bunch of uncoordinated, independent resistance groups more or less randomly attacking targets of opportunity across the lower 48 would present a massive problem for the feds.
As to needing communication to know “there’s something that needs to be disrupted”, it seems to me that if you know that then someone else will, too, and probably someone in the area and in a position to take some action. We need to have faith in each other, in our individual abilities to recognize targets of opportunity without having to rely on someone else to tell us what to do. After all, aren’t we rebelling against centralization?
At first it will be all individual. You will know it’s your time to pick up the rifle when you come to it, as some have noted. It may have nothing to do with the way the rest of the world is going, but only the particular outrage you yourself are being subjected to.
Later on when the war is well and truly on, there will be more opportunities for planned events shared with others.
As to NAP, government is nothing but violence, and always has been. We have already satisfied NAP. They have already declared war on us, and we are already in a state of defensive action. All that is left is for the action to commence.
Thanks for that, Laird!
Thanks, Pat. I did read Out Of The Grey Zone – great book.
I don’t know the answers to any of your questions.
What I do know is that I probably won’t see that final tipping point coming. Yet, after it arrives it will seem as obvious as a train bearing down on me. That doesn’t mean the good guys win- the government extremists are probably better prepared for the war- after all, they’ve been stockpiling the stolen supplies for many years.
———————————
What Kent said …
Except for this part:
———————————
My personal line in the sand is probably remote gun detection equipment deployed in places I am likely to be. At that point I really do think it will be “Claire Wolfe Time”.
———————————
My personal line will be when the local Jabbuts begin confiscations. Then it’s “Katy-bar-the-door”.
One small bone to pick though Kent ….
It will NEVER be “Claire Wolfe Time” because Claire is not the arbiter of anyone’s actions except her own and she has repeatedly asked folks to NOT lay that meme at her door.
She openly stated the obvious but even so that does not make her the “Ref” blowing the whistle to start the game … any game.
Forgive me for correcting you publicly but I feel it would be better expressed as “That Event Claire Warned Us Was Coming”?
stay safe,
gooch
I agree with the posters who say it will be individuals responding for their own personal cross-the-line incidents. In point of fact it has already begun that way and regrettably that is how it will mainly continue and how it will end for those individuals. The prospect of it becoming a shared fight with a prospect of even local or temporary success is not one I can visualize. But that is OK, we come into this world alone and leave it alone so the fact of living it that way also doesn’t seem so unusual in perspective. For those who make that stand on that day; even if it is their last, it will be a validation of their belief and a confirmation of their commitment to it. and the vast majority can say or do no such thing. Not a bad epitaph for a transient and temporal creature to leave.
Gooch,
Good point, so instead of calling it Claire time, how bout if we just start a new acronym and call it TTSTB?
There is one unequivocal fact here, and I’m glad others have said it as part of their musings. It will be the entirety of mine:
The polypragmatoi are PUSHING for this war.
The Progressives, the Prohibitionists, the Meddlers, the Regulators, the Taxers, the Bureaucrats. They WANT this war, and they are doing everything they can do to make it happen.
This is why I do not view the Carl Dregas, the William Fosters (movie, Falling Down), or even Chris Dorner, as necessarily violating the NAP. They just reached their limit of being PUSHED.
Their pushing for civil war is just one more example of why I cannot comprehend the Progressive mind.
just waiting,
I am pretty good with acronyms but yours escapes me. Elucidate me?
Ah I think I’ve got it … Time To Shoot The Bastards ?
I also like TTTBOF [Teteebawf] Time To Take Back Our Freedom.
———–
Bob Robertson,
Point made and yet keep in mind a comment made by the gunhobbit.
Here – http:/ /gunhobbit.word press.com/
I quote:
“Whether you believe they’re serious or not, gun boards are filled with writers who claim they’re going to look to take up arms to defend their right to keep and bear arms. All well and good. The interesting difference is that you don’t see anybody on the freedom-loathing anti-gun side offering to personally go out and disarm gun owners. They all expect to farm it out to underpaid state workers, while sitting back and basking in the glory of their self-righteousness.”
My Pollyanna translation=Sort of a round-about vision of our possible win by default? [hope,hope,hope]
Meanwhile – stay safe
You got it Gooch!
“But that is OK, we come into this world alone and leave it alone…”
I don’t know about that. I plan to take a few of the bastards with me – if they really are dumb enough to cross that line in the sand. Every useful life should be ended by a useful death.
I must have missed it in Thad past but what are the books water Lilly wrote?
Googh- You are right; I shouldn’t lay that on Claire. But you obviously knew what I meant. I know people always used to ask her “Is it time yet?” and she’d say it wasn’t her call. But, due to The Famous Quote she will always be associated with when it IS time. I think it is past time myself, and that “we” (not me, personally, due to my age, but you know what I mean) should have been “STB” for the past century at least. “We” certainly wouldn’t have been wrong to do so.
Richard, to the best of my knowledge, none of Water Lily’s books have been published yet. But I’ve read bits in manuscript form and believe me, when they are published, they ought to be big hits.
gooch & Kent — Though I do find it shocking that sweet, harmless me should be forever associated with “Claire Wolfe time,” I agree that all the chivalry in the world won’t undo that fact. Brought it on myself, you know — though if I’d have had any idea that one line in a book would get around like that I might have gotten out my editing pen …
There’s an old Dutch saying: “The nail that sticks up will be hammered down.”
I think we’ve missed our time. If we haven’t reached a limit by now, when will we? This question has kind of floated throughout this discussion. The age of Reason, which gave us the American and then the French Revolutions was the high point of Western Human History. I don’t see an equivalent movement of cohesive thought today. The Tea Party movement is a bright spot, but our so called conservative leaders feel threatened, so they’re all entrenching their positions in the Politburo rather than step up to the plate. Maybe we could all just break bread with Our Beloved Leader? The sad reality is that it is not going to happen in my life time (say, the next 25 to 30 years). I’m sorry Claire, but the time to shoot the bastards has come and gone. Our ideals are bruised, and we have become a voting minority, but our life is not yet intolerable, that will fall on generations yet to come. That’s where and when the change will come. What I may see in my lifetime is a collapse of the economy (almost certainly), or a rip in the structure of society such as an upheaval of the urban landscape (probably to some degree) but these things will only serve the State in its concentration of power. The nails will get hammered down until there are just too damned many of them, but that isn’t now. When it’s your nail getting hammered down it seems like all the rest of us should come to your aid, but truth is, we’re just glad it isn’t us…
Individual make up of each person determines a different tolerance and idea of what an abuse is. This is what makes it so hard in trying to stop it. We the people, short of insurrection can combat this in many ways starting with Social Media. Email, letter writing, phone calls and peaceful demonstration. Those that abuse must know that their actions are not welcomed and will not be tolerated. However, today there is such a small turnout when in comes to trying to peacefully combat all of this. A small majority of folks understand that those who violate the peoples trust need to be relieved from their positions, if this was a perfect world it would happen with an overwhelming voice. I believe that many people want to make a change but are complacent or just go with the flow. As an example…
The following link is to a article in fox news. It is what makes many of you as well as me angry to the core. I do not condone this officers action and without question think that he needs to be fired on the spot for this.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/03/09/kentucky-police-officer-fined-2-for-striking-handcuffed-suspect-multiple-times/?test=latestnews
There is never a justifiable situation for this… With this said and relating to this blog subject it would seem that not only does his department condone this, but also a jury of his peers really didn’t think about the ethical implications…
I don’t know why people would exonerate a public servant who could possibly do this to them.
@DJ Lawman there are many examples of tyranny happening every week. even local government has gotten out of control. This woman made the mistake of thinking that politics is clean and pure and its impossible that they would try to roll her.
http://www.examiner.com/article/n-j-mother-arrested-guns-confiscated-by-attending-property-tax-dispute-forum?fb_action_ids=301615956633591&fb_action_types=og.likes&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map=%5B561965510502918%5D&action_type_map=%5B%22og.likes%22%5D&action_ref_map=%5B%5D