I have a friend who’s lived offshore for … I don’t know how long. Long time. Decades, maybe. He believes that any USSA freedomista who doesn’t quickly move off to furrin parts is doooooooomed and he plans to be shouting, “I told you so!” as various vast edifi of a collapsing state crush us into pulp.
Could be, could be.
Freedomistas who stay in the U.S. could be in as much denial as those German Jews who are cited so often today. Part of being in denial is not knowing that you are.
That’s one reason I went to Panama four years ago and Nicaragua this month. Perspective. Checking things out. (Getting to be warm in winter didn’t hurt, either.)
But I’m probably not going back. Unless something big comes along (e.g. a millionaire sweeping me off my feet and urging me to live with him forever in his seaside villa in Costa Rica — an event as likely as winning the lottery then being abducted by aliens on the way home with my multi-million dollar check) — it just ain’t happening. Reasons? Many and various.
—–
Let me count (some of) the ways.
I don’t like being where I don’t speak the language. As a writer, the knowledge that I’ll never be able to communicate fluently especially bothers me.
At the same time, I hate the idea of going to another country and huddling in some insular expat community. Seriously, what’s the point of that?
Those expat communities bring up another point: money. Expats are always going on about how much less expensive it is to live in places like Panama or Nicaragua (or further afield, e.g. Thailand or Cambodia). But that’s an urban or suburban perspective. It’s not true for me. I already live in a backwater where everything is cheap.
In fact, in virtually every country I’ve studied, my personal cost of living would go way up (and most of all in English-speaking countries like New Zealand — which would be my first choice of haven if I had bux).
Expats talk about how much more free they feel. They point out (no doubt rightly) that the U.S. has been enveloped by a poisonous cloud of suspicion, paranoia, and surveillance. But again — here in my beloved backwater I experience that mostly only by reading about it on the Internet. None of that is part of the local, small-town climate.
OTOH, in both Panama and Nicaragua, I was in cars that were stopped in random police dragnets. In Nicaragua, it happened 15 minutes from the airport, before I even got to my B&B. Granted, the officers were polite. The most recent one greeted me with a friendly “Good morning!” (at 2:00 in the afternoon) as soon as I told him, “No hablo espanol.” Still … that’s freedom?
Gun rights. Gun rights. Gun rights. It doesn’t matter one whit to me that I can easily get a permit to buy and carry in Panama. I don’t ask permission to own or use weapons. It doesn’t matter one whit to me that I can covertly get a weapon anywhere in the world. Here, right where I am, I have it better than that. For others, it may be fine. But not for me.
I could go on. There’s much more to say. But I was reminded of my personal bottom line this morning when I read this Megan McArdle article. The article has nothing to do with expatriation. It has to do with a bunch of middle and upper-middle class tsking about rising housing prices in popular metro areas.
I read that and shook my head: “I don’t live in the same country as you, Megan.” And I literally don’t. The realities of D.C. or San Francisco or Manhattan are so very, very foreign to the realities where I live that we might as well already be in separate countries.
In a small town in the middle of nowhere I’m already “offshore.” Not warm, unfortunately. But far removed from both the “first-world problems” of D.C. and the random police stops and endemic corruption of Latin America.
—–
Now, could everything change drastically for the worse overnight as my expat “Cassandra” friend predicts? Sure. Of course. The USSA could crumble into economic chaos or decree itself under martial law in an instant.
Just as Panama could overnight become embroiled in a war over control of the canal. Or be invaded by the U.S., as it was just 25 years ago. Just as Thailand could be swept up in civil war, as it nearly is right now. Just as Nicaragua could once again become inhospitable to Americans. Just as any unstable country could suddenly decide to oust all its furriners. And on and on and on.
Could I be a fool for staying? Could we all? Only history will tell. But the present tells me that I’m in a place where I know the culture, where I’m deeply connected, where I can afford to live, where I fit in, where law enforcement is more likely to turn outward against outside political pressure than turn inward against its citizens. I’m in a place where, if I had to defend myself, I’d pretty much know what to expect in the aftermath. And above all, I’m in a place that nobody outside considers to be of much importance.
Believe me, if “they” ever round up Americans to go into those oft-rumored camps, this isn’t going to be the first place FEMA or the UN (or whoever) marches into.
I live in a different country than Panama or Nicaragua. I’m also in a different country than Washington, D.C. or Los Angeles. Thank heaven.
And here — barring that miraculous millionaire — I stay.
Yep.
And here I thought you wanted to avoid the “Shower of Death”. ; )
As for any “warning” thing’s gone South, I’ve come to believe it’d be the Dollar and the Stock Market going to Pot. People are “comfortable” if they can get Dollars and more importantly, can spend them. Once it takes a lot of Dollars to get something that used to only a couple of Dollars to buy, and the paychecks still stays small, much like the Weimar Government in pre-WWII Germany, that will likely be our first clue.
At last… some common sense about expatting.
For those expats who are satisfied, may they be happy (and safe) forever! But there is no ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ choice for someone else ― we can only make that choice for ourselves.
A language can be learned, a culture absorbed, but it takes a lifetime to truly *belong*. Some of us don’t have that much time, and others don’t wish to waste it on trying to fit in. Besides, it’s better to be prepared in one’s own country, than play “Who do you trust?” when help is needed elsewhere.
Expats are always going on about how much less expensive it is to live in places like Panama or Nicaragua (or further afield, e.g. Thailand or Cambodia).
As I mentioned earlier, how many of those expats are “living less expensive” because they’re spending U.S. annuity/investment/retirement/SS checks? How many are living in places where goods are cheap because there’s enough for the local folks and a surplus to sell the expats?
So what happens if the U.S. economy goes belly-up and the expat checks stop, just about the time international trade fails and the surplus dries up?
Google “auslander.”
Pretty much my thinking all along, Claire. I like it just fine where I am. I’ll work to keep it that way. And if it doesn’t, I’ll adapt and learn and survive the best I can… just as I’d have to do anywhere on earth… or beyond it.
I was amused that you’ve been to both Panama and Nicaragua, places that were once jammed full of expats. I love Fred Reed but am somewhat familiar with the area he lives in and it’s kinda like living in Oakland. It can be beautiful, as is Vietnam, Rwanda and and South Africa… but given the opportunity most of the population would come to America (yes, still, even today as we sink into a police state). I’m sure as hell not ignoring the dangers that grow on a daily basis here, but, all those things we worry about are more often then not already a reality in Expat land. Fred is rightfully always talking about the bad stuff that’s happening in places like Detroit and DC… but as Claire pointed out, I’m as far away from that where I live in California as he is in Mexico. All this talk of Jews ignoring the Nazis reminds me that many Jews moved to safe havens in France, Italy and Holland… and that doesn’t mean it worked out. If the US slides into economic catastrophe, which seems likely, Expats will find themselves as welcome in Nicaragua as Jews in France were in 1941. It’s always a matter of money, whether you’re living in a gated/moated/guarded community in South Africa, or a tropical paradise like Nicaragua. Without dollars…
Great post.
I agree about the language and the cost of living. It may seem dirt cheap to live in a Central or South American country to those who sold their 1/2 million dollar US homes and live off their investments.
We don’t live in the boonies, (though we’d like to) yet our standard of living is lower than many in our area. We have to weigh every single purchase and generally wait until things break beyond repair to replace them. At the same time, some of my friends are jetting off to Italy and buying yet another brand-new car. That’s fine for them. It’s just not our world. Sure, they can afford a Galt’s Gulch in Chile. Not us.
If the US keeps going down the road toward totalitarianism, do we really think that other countries will stay free? I think we have a better chance of getting through the rough times ahead by staying put in the US.
LarryA and thePeasant have it right. A dollar collapse and the expats will be hunted down.
No expat will ever truly be a part of the local culture even if they have an indigenous partner.
We spent three years in Honduras and while it was freer in many respects, all in all it isn’t any better.
I missed the gun culture for one thing. And yeah you could get a gun but where I am I have my own range about 200 ft from the house.
And while I got along fine in Spanish, I still wasn’t fluent the way I am in English. And here at least I do know the local culture and can speak the language just like a native. Heh heh.
Pretty much that, yup.
I spent some time in Honduras back in the mid-70’s, and there were a bunch of expats there who thought it was the bee’s knees. Maybe for them it was, but my big bugaboo is gun rights and aggressively corrupt cops. CA has none of the first and way, way too much of the second. I also live so far from the city that if the troubles expats predict ever come as far as me it’ll be time for the war anyway. I live here, this is my home, and I won’t be driven from it to something I perceive as worse.
I spent about half of my adult life liveing overseas in various countries. I liked them all. But, I am American and I always wanted to come home. As bad as things are right now, as bad as they might get, I’d rather be an American in America than a Gringo anywhere else. It is about choice and I’m clag the expats have the choice, freedom and financially to move. I choose to stay.
About the example of Jews that stayed in Europe until it was two late. Yes, some did, but often it wasn’t a case of short sightedness or stupidity. THere were many, many reasons to stay and hope for the best.
1) Many stayed because they did not have the resources or skills to leave to another country. Often other countries welcomed Jews only because they came with money to invest, or skills medical engineering etc, the new countries needed. Israel did not exist to take them in at the time. 2) Some of the Jews believed the propaganda and lies the government told them (lesson learned). 3) Not all the Jews that stayed went meekly to the ovens. Some fought from the forests, others in the ghettos, some led other jews to free countries. In Finland, the Jews fought with their fellow countrymen agains the Russians.
I’ve always thought that the expat thing was a bit too idealized. Well, for some, it clearly is ideal. I think I’d adapt well to a lot of it, but certainly not to other aspects, the obvious one being gun ownership.
I don’t think we’re necessarily DOOOOOOOOOOOOOMED!, but there’s a catch. If things do collapse, I’ll be in bad shape if I’m still living where I am now, I’m pretty sure — I’ll be an “expat” in my own neighborhood. It’s possible I’m wrong about that, but that’s my current evaluation. So the fix is to become an internal expat, in a better location. That’s a tall order for me.
Veering off into the weeds:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuOBzWF0Aws
“If Google was a Guy”
Do watch part 2 as well. 🙂
Regarding the Jews leaving Germany. There was a ship that was chartered to take the Jews out, problem was, no one wanted them, not even the U.S., so they were forced to “go back”. Practically right into the extermination chambers.
Thus one of my problems with going to another country, if things goes south so much it affects not only the U.S., then they may not want any foreigners, not just us gringoes.
Yep. I personally am too old and dilapidated and set in my ways to move anydamwhere again. Heres where I am, heres where I’ll die. Quietly, or fighting, thats up to ‘them’, not me.
Exactly. And I’m not sure how much of “single woman” fits into the decision, but if I am on my own somewhere then I’d prefer it be familiar in as many ways possible (even if it all is going sideways, many things can still be predicted and figured out anyway)……I also believe that the bigger cities/higher groups of people will be the first targets of any kind of gov “roundup” (whatever one wants to imagine) and those in the boonies will have a head start on making plans to react….Ideally, I’d like to find a US state that is ready and able to fight for the real freedoms we’re suppose to have, but I haven’t found one of those yet *key word: yet* and I’d move there now….
As for people nearby, I have more faith in another American citizen (for fight and for reactions) than I would someone who thinks I’m a furriner….goes back to familiarity and predictability; even our demented criminals here follow patterns to watch for…..Of course, since watching the fictional tv show Revolution I have revised that thinking a bit, LOL…..
Excuse the brain gasp, that should be higher CONCENTRATIONS OF people….
Well, you need at least one contrary opinion 🙂
The analogy to German Jews is incorrect. A more apt analogy would be to the old line conservatives or communists who opposed the Nazis. Mostly they were given a chance to shut up (or join) and if they did they were left alone. The regime could not afford to disappear too many people. That is the most likely scenario if tyranny arrives in the US.
Also many Germans lived through the entire Nazi period, including the war, just fine. As Claire points out the location matters. If you are in a “remote” place, with no strategic value, and are not on a list, you are probably going to be left alone.
One thing I noticed since leaving the US, Americans are very hung up on what is legal. They, much more than most other people, believe the law, for lack of a better way to put it “is real”.
This relates to gun rights. On paper most of the US is the absolute best when it comes to RTKABA. But consider the confiscation during Katrina. Also consider that Western Europe, despite its restrictive guns laws, has tons of unregistered arms in the hands of the population. In Latin America it is the same. When people do not like a law they just ignore it.
I am not suggesting that a concern over this specific issue (or any other) is misplaced. Absent a free society it is often hard to decide which aspects of freedom are the most important. Guns, ability to buy (or sell) raw milk, smoke pot without being hassled, homeschool your kids, the list goes on.
Whatever you consider important, I would look at the reality on the ground and not exclusively what the law says. Often the two are very different.
The various practical issues which people raised have been answered in other comment threads, both here and in a variety of blogs or forums so there is no need for me repeat. Either those answered convinced you or they didn’t.
Ultimately I think it comes down to comfort level and not any particular item. Most people would rather stay home, almost no matter what, than have to deal with the discomfort of being a foreigner.
Most people, even most people commenting here, are probably not doomed. If you are not on a list, you do not get yourself on one and you have the ability to go along, you will be left alone (probably).
It all boils down, to me at least, to the freedom to make our own choices. DH and I choose to live off road and off grid in the national forest. It feels very free but it entails lots of sacrifices and burdens of responsibility. Our friends mostly feel as if we have expatriated to a foreign country, out here in the woods, because they don’t choose this particular path of inconvenience and isolation. And it’s a wonderful thing that we can all make our own choices.
Anywhere on this entire planet will have pros and cons. Everywhere has it’s own costs and rewards. Only I can determine what rewards I’m looking for and what costs I’m willing to pay to get them.
“If you are not on a list, you do not get yourself on one and you have the ability to go along, you will be left alone (probably).”
That’s alright; to each their own. But I figure I’ve got exactly one life, and I’m not living it based on what others believe I ought to do. Nor will I live it driven by fear—“Fear is a liar,” almost always. Even pragmatically, who wants to sacrifice their life and values based on a “probably”?
My guess is that internment camps, should we allow them to happen, will be for the sheeple, not outspoken individualists. In that sort of scenario, those folk have to be eliminated. I just can’t figure out whether that’s good news or bad news!
Interesting things are happening in NY for sure, and maybe CT. You can’t score the fight before the first round.
Most of us folks here are probably on several ‘lists’ already. The first round has about a 50/50 chance of happening over the next three years by my reckoning so now is the time to stay or git.
Jim Klein nailed it with this statement: You can’t score the fight before the first round.”
There is something inside me that wishes for CT (the “Constitution State” haha) and NY to be the turning point in which .gov overplays their hand and gets a deservedly real comeuppance. The bully boys that have been pushing Americans around for too long need a smack-down. Then, and only then will there be an understanding of the natural law and its consequences.
I like the gun culture (and a few other things) too much to walk away.
A decade ago, I considered and even looked into leaving FUSA. One place I thought about was the Philippines. I’ve a friend there who loves it. On my visit I learned that it was not for me….in spite of the abundance of hot women and cheap cost of living. The Philippines is one of many crappy little countries with an abundance of their own troubles. The people are nice enough, but I am not a native and know I would never fully fit in.
Staying put is the best option for me. Others may choose differently and I wish them the best. Me? I am fixing popcorn and staying for the fight. I might even become an active participant under the proper circumstances. 😉 Take your seats folks. The opening bell for round one is just about to be rung.
“Gun rights. Gun rights. Gun rights. It doesn’t matter one whit to me that I can easily get a permit to buy and carry in Panama. I don’t ask permission to own or use weapons.”
Which leads me to two tangential questions, for information-seeking purposes only, and deliberately purely hypothetically phrased.
What is your personal opinion of concealed carry licensing? And, depending on how you answer the first question, what is your personal opinion of concealed carry in prohibited places?
Feel free to demur, no butthurt inferred here.
LiberTarHeel — My personal opinion of cc licensing? I’m agin’ it. However, lots of people I know get permits & it’s not something I’m going to argue about. It’s just not for me. CC in prohibited places? If it’s private property, I respect the property owner’s wishes. If it’s “public” property I don’t think the government has any business forbidding any lawful & peaceable person from carrying, concealed or openly. My $.02.
America is my home. I ain’t leavin’. If staying here means I go down in a hail of bullets, so be it. I’ll take as many goons with me as I possibly can.
One thing I noticed since leaving the US, Americans are very hung up on what is legal. They, much more than most other people, believe the law, for lack of a better way to put it “is real”.
I’ll add, “universal.”
I live fairly close to Mexico. People tour across the border and get in legal trouble. You would be amazed how many are outraged when their “rights” are violated. Yeah, they count on the U.S. Bill of Rights applying to Mexico’s legal system.
What is your personal opinion of concealed carry licensing?
I’ve been teaching self-defensive shooting (NRA and Texas CHL) for 30 years now. Philosophically I’d rather have Constitutional (no-license-required) carry.
OTOH licensed carry has done four good things:
1. It was possible. Had Marian Hammer held out for Constitutional carry for Florida in 1985 it would not have passed. We would be lucky to still have legal carry in Vermont. Instead we have 42 right-to-carry states and we’re moving toward eliminating discriminatory carry in the remaining eight.
2. Concealed handgun licensees became a discrete group of gun-carrying civilians who could be studied. When we acted responsibly and produced a far-below-average problem rate it proved to most folks that gun owners can be trusted.
3. The concealed carry debate handed the anti-gun movement the opportunity to repeatedly predict gloom-n-doom as we gained shall-issue laws, pilot carry, off-duty/retired LEO carry, national park carry, Amtrak gun checking, and now campus carry, parking lot storage, and teachers in schools. All of their predictions failed, and all we had to do was stand by while they hung themselves with their own PR rope.
4. Finally, licensed carry provided a path toward Constitutional carry, now in four states and being considered in more.
what is your personal opinion of concealed carry in prohibited places?
First off, I don’t carry where prohibited. I do usually keep my holster on for any “I told you so” moments.
Since I’m in Texas it’s usually easier to avoid the few places that are off-limits. Particularly since I don’t do bars, prisons, racetracks, etc. Also, I tend to be peaceable, so I don’t get into the By God It’s My Right mode much. There’s a time and place for that, but generally you can get further with honey than with vinegar. (Mom’s looking over my shoulder.)
OTOH I can think of several circumstances where personal/family security needs might overrule that position.
Claire, your conclusions are indeed correct.
It is beyond dispute that society is in the process of turning upside down, on a truly GLOBAL scale. Realistic scenarios include financial collapse, societal collapse, martial law and an attempt at world governance (not necessarily in that order, but all reasonably likely within a short period of time). For these situations, there will be no “safe” haven; nowhere to run, nowhere to hide. This is the double-edged sword of global finance.
I’ve very close friends in New Zealand, who have encouraged me to move my family there. But I have the same problems with this, that you described. My wife is from Russia, but having spent a few months in Russia (and nearly a year throughout the rest of E.Europe), I have come to the conclusion that their governments are just as corrupt and twisted as ours; the difference mainly lies in their being far more overt in their contempt of the citizens.
There is only ONE advantage over all other countries; access to lots and lots of guns. The advantage is of sufficient significance, that it becomes the deciding factor.
Yep. It’s my home.
My little brother, though, he went expat.
I’ll visit him. He’ll visit me.
Sixty-five years ago my Canada was just about perfect. Cold in Winter, yes, but FREE. Our present Kanuckistan is less free than it was then: bureaucracies must grow or perish and the .gov passes restrictions to justify itself. HOWEVER, as you have said Claire it’s HOME and better the devil you know…….molon labe.
Excellent post and excellent points.
Prepping for a big collapse is fine, but moving to a foreign land basically eliminates a great deal of potential for enjoying life if things DON’T go to hell.
As a thrivalist, I make preps for both bad things and good things. I worry a lot less about very detailed “movie plot threats” (h/t Bruce Schneier) and more about general ability to deal with both anticipated and unexpected events. But I never let prepping get in the way of saving, living, learning, and enjoying life.
If and only if I become convinced that there will be a nationwide horror that I can’t reasonably ride out holed up in a relatively remote rural gulch, then I might conclude that getting offshore is the only viable option.
But as bad as things are, they are a long way from that. I expect a dollar collapse and a lot of pain inflicted on nearly all of us. I expect major irrationality, especially from government, but also from individuals and mobs. But I expect those things to pass, and for life to go on.
It’s fair to point out that Jews in pre-war Germany could make the same arguments for staying in place. And perhaps they were right. We have the benefit of hindsight; they did not. We are more mobile, more wealthy, and live in a more connected world than they did. We know things now that they could not know then.
I don’t doubt for a minute that the government, or mobs, or mobs encouraged by government, can and probably will select some unpopular minority for hideous mistreatment. The urge to find scapegoats seems to be strong in humans under stress.
But there is no practical way to guess right now which group will draw the short straw. It probably won’t be Jews again, but one never knows. The selection could be based on race, on income, on profession, or by pure chance. There really is no telling what a crazed mob will do.
So I’ll prepare a safe place to hunker down, but won’t be driven from the land where I was born, where I speak the language and understand if not agree with the culture. That is going too far, right now, for me.
One thing that I didn’t see touched on, almost all, maybe all expats who made that choice for the reasons we are talking about will say and defend that they are happy when they really aren’t, and that the choice was correct, when it really isn’t. No one wants to admit to making a mistake.
Human nature doesn’t change and once you are around long enough and observant enough the underbelly of whatever paradise you’ve moved to becomes very apparent.
Have you ever looked at a population density map of Central America?
In Honduras about 4 percent of the population owns eighty percent of everything. And I don’t think it is much better even in Panama. Certainly not better in Guatemala and El Salvador. And probably not in Nicaragua in spite of socialismo.
The town we lived in was owned by two families.
If you go to Batopilas, Mexico there is a burned out hacienda once owned by a rich gringo.
And besides that there is a whole industry that preys on starry eyed ex pat wannabes.
Let the ex-pats “sail for the Undying Lands” all they like. Only the most self-deluded will ever get there. Like More’s Utopia, it is a place that does not exist. A non-place. Noplace.
Nowhere in the world is freedom found. Nor handed out like candies to trick-or-treaters. It is a thing made. Forged in blood and fire and requiring continuous maintenance, exhausting effort, and unwavering attention (… oops!).
Freedom also is always and everywhere subject to revocation for lack of maintenance, laziness, or apathy.
When their new homelands’ dip into tyranny, … where then? Always searching, never finding. Always running, never fighting.
Good riddance to
bad rubbishEx-Americans.I do hope these ex-pats thought to convert their dollars to pesos (or whatever).
Then again, exactly how stable are the economies of the countries they’re moving to? Relative to the U.S., I mean.
Actually, relative to the U.S. when the entire global banking industry goes kaput? When the worldwide depression hits? Will their newfound paradise be one of the few winners, or the many losers?
Most of all, after we’ve fought for, died for, and won renewed liberty here in the FUSA, should we let these ex-pats return?
Maybe so; but they’d sure as hell better not move in to my neighborhood, because there WILL be Hell to pay.
“Maybe so; but they’d sure as hell better not move in to my neighborhood, because there WILL be Hell to pay.”
Wow. Won’t be much of a free country you’re planning to have, then, will it? Doesn’t sound like a place anybody would want to return to.
Yeah, one thing I wasn’t seeing until just then is any sense of hostility toward expats. It’s a personal decision most of the commenters have chosen not to make so far, but there’s nothing evil or exploitative about it so why get all judgemental? The expats may prove themselves right in the fullness of time. And if not, why cop such an attitude?
It’s like my attitude toward illegal immigrants: It’s likely they’re the ones we should be welcoming in, because they’re the ones who had the gumption to get up and do something radical about their situation. So history may judge the expats for all we know.
It’s a decision I’ve decided is wrong for me, but that doesn’t necessarily make it a wrong decision. Judging them so harshly says more about you than about them.
Joel, I’ve noticed that lack of hostility, too ― as opposed to the last time the subject of expats came up around here.
In fact there are several levels of expats. The ones who come and go, living part of the year in one country, and part in their own country; the ones who work in another country and are expats through no fault of their own; the ones who leave and stay away entirely with or without choosing to renounce citizenship. And, as Joel says, there are the immigrants ― expats from their own country ― who fit in all those categories.
I’m beginning to wonder if we shouldn’t eliminate the word, expat. For those who don’t stay away or don’t plan to, they are not “ex” at all. For those who choose to, they are simply living where they choose. It does put the Big Lie to nationalism, doesn’t it? And makes you wonder why we have borders at all!
I’m glad the expats are out there. They help provide another option, and options are good.
Their existence may be a bit shaky in a world-wide depression. Probably will vary on a country-by-country basis, where in one place scapegoats are needed, other places not. Those who fit in like Fred Reed probably will be all right.
The Jews were in a scapegoat position, and don’t forget Versailles. Will there be scapegoats in foreign countries? Some, probably. Will there be scapegoats in the US? I think so. Muslims should be worrying. There is some paranoia that “Tea Partiers” will be the scapegoats, but I think they are too dangerous to be in that position. Maybe in big cities things can get hot for them.
If Muslims become scapegoats in the US, I will probably be sheltering some. I don’t have much use for mob mentality.
I spent a year in Paris, doing computer work. I liked the place and the people very much, but I developed a new appreciation of America there, and was glad to get back despite all the warts. My poor to nonexistent command of French did have a lot to do with it, though. But mostly I was missing the peculiar way Americans think and act, even if, compared to the French, we have no class.
Expat is not for me either. Here in rural Alaska we have like minded neighbors and are far enough away from urban centers to be near the bottom of any ones list.
I wonder how far those expat dollars will go if the dollar tanks and converting the local currency now is dangerous. Look at Argentinas problems. Sure there is gold and silver but at this time most places are not prepared to accept such for day to day commerce.
Each to his own.
Kevin said “I like the gun culture (and a few other things) too much to walk away.” I think this is a better way to put it than gun laws or even RTKABA. The gun culture in the US is unique. In most of the US you can count on a good percentage of your neighbors being armed. In some cases heavily armed. Not only that, they really like their guns. This makes the US different from places like Switzerland and Israel, where they may have more armed households per capita, but they do not have a gun culture.
I guess it is not all that important to me. I view guns as tools. I like them in the same way I like hammers or electric saws. As long as I can get them I am OK.
Where I live a gun culture does not exist. OTOH, in all of Latin America, the tax evasion culture is alive and well. There is a recurring joke “what is the most popular sport, futball (soccer) or tax evasion?” A recent newspaper article put the rate of tax evasion in Costa Rica at 55% – 65%. In the US it is routinely reported as being 12% – 19%. I know which one I like better.
It is highly unlikely that a significant percentage of my neighbors possess firearms. It is very likely that they are dodging taxes.
Despite his (her?) hostility, I wish unowhonoswho well in his fight to restore some of the lost liberty to the US. If he manages to repeal the PATRIOT act and all of the legislative and judicial abominations that have been piled on since then I will certainly return to visit. I will even buy him and his cohort a drink. They will deserve it.
To answer the question “When their new homelands’ dip into tyranny, … where then?” First off it is “if” not when. We may all be on some road to hell, but they are different roads and we are traveling at different speeds. If things start to look bad here I will leave. I have lived in several countries and worked in several more. I am here until there is a good reason to leave. Where to will be determined by research at that time. I am a sojourner, not a tree with roots.
He also asks how stable the economies are. The answer is complicated. Where I live the shadow economy is large. Estimates do not exist but for sure it is way bigger than the US 8% – 9% informal economy. This is very stable. If the US economy collapses I suspect the formal sector here will be hard hit but will recover. For example the tourist industry took a big hit when the US housing bubble burst, but in a few years mostly made up for it with increased tourism from other Latin American countries. So, how stable? It varies. Stay on your toes. This applies to the US economy as well.
I got a question for unowhonoswho. Even assuming you’re completely correct about the relative benefits of the USA, why in the world do you care if someone else expats?
So badly that you’d want to retaliate against them?? I mean damn, that’s some odd hurt; I’m sorry that you live with it. Buying scratch-off lottery tickets doesn’t seem like the brightest move to me either, but I wouldn’t hold a grudge against those who do it…at least not for that alone. But hey, that’s me.
My prediction—4 letters are going to become very popular: M.Y.O.B.
MYOB indeed, as well as LITS. (Life is too short)
In the midst of chaos friends are going to be very valuable. Eliminating whole categories from consideration because you want them to “pay” for something you’re mad about, is not going to enhance survival.
Goodness gracious! Imagine if our ancestors (well, likely for the majority) chose to stay in jolly olde England/France/Germany/Ireland/Sweden – wherever. They had enough of the crap & realized the folly of hangin’ on, avoiding therefore the coming storm(s). And here we are. What to make of that? Where your ancestors cowards?
As to those believing there is somehow a duty to stay – what say you to those escaping Californika/CONnecticut/Commirado?
I see that many of the responses above center on RKBA – as if that recognized right exists in this country. Do you believe it does? Try walking in a city – heck, even a town with an AR (better yet, AK) strapped on. See what happens. What will you do when that “right” exists only on paper, as a theory – what then?
itor ― You make a good point re: our ancestors ― as far as it goes.
OTOH, those ancestors chose to stay and fight, too, rather than move on. Some did move ― farther west, farther south, farther north (to Canada), because the land was there ― but generally they had been pushed far enough (by a country that followed them across the pond), and refused to be pushed any more.
The RKBA is an extension of that fight, and the battle hasn’t been lost just because the anti-gunners have put laws on the books. In fact the more laws that are passed, the more the “gun nuts” fight back. Have you noticed?
BTW, I’m not one who believes that liking to hunt or insisting on self-defense makes us a “gun culture”. The term is strictly political, and has become more useful to those who oppose guns than to those who insist on owning and carrying them.
I’m sometimes tempted to ask if wanting to keep food on the table makes us a food culture? Both food and guns are grounded in self-preservation, one for the individual’s body, the other to prevent the individual from being attacked by others (even other animals such as snakes, bears, coyotes ― and tyrants.) Neither method of self-preservation began with America’s founding, and neither method will cease if America no longer exists.