A reader emailed about this encounter:
Just had a hair raising close call here. One of my neighbors has two very large German Shepherd dogs. He lets them run loose when he is with them and they never seemed to be a problem until today.
I carried my 9mm carbine down to the fence along the road today because those two dogs were chasing one of the horses just across the road from me. He was kicking at the dogs, and darn near nailed one too. The dogs didn’t seem to be trying to bring the pony down, but they were all running fast and at any time the pony could have stepped into a hole and broken its leg or gotten hurt running into the barbed wire.
The law here is very clear that any dog harming or harassing livestock may be shot without warning or any repercussions. I’m not clear whether or not that applies only to the owner of the livestock, and family/employees, but I would not have hesitated to shoot if it had gone on any longer. The owner of the horses didn’t get involved until after the dogs were led away… and he wasn’t armed.
The owner of the dogs was running around after them like an idiot, shouting at the dogs with zero influence on them, but just as I got into position, he managed to grab one of them and got them sort of, kind of under control – so I just watched as he led them back to his own property.
I don’t know if he noticed the gun or not… but hope he did. All I can say is that he’d damn well better keep those dogs at home from now on.
Anyway, I wondered what your readers would think about such a situation, and what they would be willing/ready to do about it.
What are your thoughts on this? What would you do (or what do you think you’d do) in this situation? If you saw the chase beginning and had a choice of weapon to bring, what weapon in your arsenal would you be most likely to grab? What, if anything, would you say to the dog-walking neighbor, then or later? How about to the horse-owning neighbor? How would you feel during and after?
The easy response, as we sit in our comfy armchairs or at our office desks, is to snort, “I’d just shoot the damn mutts and be done with it!” But the reality is a lot more complicated, tactically, diplomatically, and emotionally.
I expect that the average gun owner is a lot more likely to run into a situation like this (or to have to defend pets from a four-legged or winged predator) than to confront a human predator with a firearm. Worth thinking about.
ADDED: ML makes the excellent point that how we handle situations like this one says a lot about how we might handle a deadly SHTF confrontation. Or any other potentially deadly human encounter. Also worth thinking about.
I don’t think it was his responsibility to look after the neighbor’s horse. If the horse had fallen and the dogs attacked, then yes, he could have interceded, even to shooting them. If the dog owner was trying to stop the dogs, however ineffectually, he could have gone to get the horse owner. Or shot over the dogs’ heads to scare them off.
If the dogs got away with it once, they will be chasing the horses again. He needs to find out what the horse owner wants him to do. And suggest the horse owner seriously talk to the dog owner about keeping the dogs off his property.
If they are your horses then there shouldn’t be a problem. As long as he is not near the dogs at the time.
I’m the caretaker of a couple of dogs who think the best thing in life is chasing and scaring as much hell as possible out of horses. Preferably with riders attached. So I’m going to say, boys will be boys. Call their owner in a spirit of neighborly amity and let bygones be bygones.
Heh. (slinks away)
That works if you know the dogs, of course. Having to choose between shooting a beautiful, non vicious dog… or watch a beautiful horse break his leg and have to be shot… Not a great situation to be in. But I’d shoot the dogs if they were actually attacking livestock.
Seems to me, however, that the question here is deeper than even that. We keep talking about the conflict to come, and I wonder if any of us will actually be willing and able to pull that trigger if it is a human being in the sights. I had to do it once, but I’m not as sure about it as I used to be.
Hi Claire. Been there and done that.
I came home to my hobby farm one afternoon to the sound of two Rottweilers that belonged to a neighbor, attacking my goats. There was no time for pleasantries: they had already mauled one, and were going after my Nubian Buck….who was doing his best to protect the rest of the flock. Bravest damned thing I ever did see. I grabbed my Mini14 ranch rifle and shot them both dead on the spot. I called the sheriff, who happily returned their stone cold corpses to their rightful owner.
I am the responsible owner of a German shepherd, who I had confined to a dog run while I was away. I still get accusing looks from her…..”If only you would have left me on guard duty”……but responsible owners do not let their dogs run loose. Period.
Hard call. Especially if you do not own the animals involved. If I were armed under those circumstances I would wait until harm of the chased animal(s) was imminent, I would then kill the dogs and hope for the best consequences after the fact. Here in Wyoming the dogs would be shot out of hand and no consequences at all from a legal stand point. If human on human encounters I would shoot the perpetrators…A sticky situation.
1. Not my horse? Not my problem.
2. Dog owner in attendance and no actual bloodshed? Be prepared to take a trip with the local LEO if you shoot.
The reader did the right thing — be prepared to act, but wait until all other options have been exhausted.
I think he did the right thing. But I have shot a lot of dogs in defense of my own animals, and would do it in defense of other animals, too.
I once pelted a dog with rocks all the way back home after he growled and barked at my daughter in my yard. The owner came out and whined that his dog was just like his child and I shouldn’t have done it (he’s really lucky I didn’t shoot it)- I pointed out that my daughter IS my child, and it wasn’t the first time I’d had problems with his dog on my property, but it would be the last. Despite his protests that he didn’t believe in keeping dogs penned or chained, it really was the last time I caught his dog on my property. I hate trespassing dogs. I’ve lost too much to them over the years, and I would be grateful to anyone who helped protect my animals from one.
The person who wrote you needs to understand the ramifications of using deadly force. Not his horses and shoots the dogs as the owner is trying to get the mutts under control equals hire a lawyer. One of two things is going to happen. He will be led away in cuffs or the dog owner is going to clean this guy out in court.
Had a German Shepherd that got into a winter pasture full of Forestry Service horses. Horse kicked him to death. Had a small dog that liked to chase open range cattle. She quit the habit after getting three ribs broken by a calf. I was lucky she didn’t get shot. It is imperative to keep pets controlled. In the scenario described maybe he should of helped round up the dogs?
Do dogs understand warning shots? Would a warning shot scare the horse into running? If I decided to shoot the dog(s) do I have time to position myself between the dog and the victim to ‘justify’ shooting? Is it legal to shoot dogs that shit on my urban lawn (just kidding)? I don’t know what I’d do.
I think the guy did the right thing in holding off as much as he can. He needs to learn the law regarding just the situation he faced. He also needs to meet with the horse’s owner, since he’s a neighbor, and find out what he wants him to do in the future. He may face the same dogs or different dogs, doesn’t matter, he needs to know what the owner would want him to do and to have permission from him for the same situation in the future.
The dogs’ owner needs to learn to get his dogs in control.
CYA first then help.
To answer the easy part of the question, the 9mm carbine would be an excellent choice. Just remember, even though it’s a handgun round the carbine will send bullets a mile and a half down the road.
Since the dog owner was there and trying to get his dogs under control, I wouldn’t have shot. But then, shooting a dog that wasn’t obviously dangerously aggressive would break my heart. I still feel sad about having shot a coyote that was threatening our livestock years ago.
Someone above suggested that he could have tried helping the dog owner get the dogs and that seems reasonable. Follow that with a suggestion that the dog owner take his dogs to somewhere unpopulated to let them run free. Out in the National Forest there are frequently folks out letting their dogs run where there’s little chance of an encounter with anyone or any thing. Or something like the old logging road where you take your dogs Claire. It’s an inconvenience, but worth the trouble if it means saving the dogs.
Neither shoot the dogs …nor the dog owner, the latter more responsible! If the dog owner wasn’t trying to control the dogs, I would have done it …using my cane to corral the dogs in an away direction. The dogs weren’t being vicious, just being dogs.
It’s up to the horse owner, but #1, file a complaint with whatever in local government passes for Animal Control; the reporter in this case (whoever emailed it to you) can supply a Witness Statement, specifically referencing the owner’s inability to control both</i dogs verbally and the complete lack of all other control mechanisms (leash, voice command, fencing, etc.). That the dog owner routinely allows the dogs to run unrestricted should also be mentioned. This paperwork will document the event and allow Animal Control to pursue legal action, usually a charge for “dog at large” which will be a fine. The horse owner should obtain and retain copies of everything.
#2, the reporter can express his concern to the dog owner about the reporter’s personal safety in light of the two dogs at large threatening large livestock and the possibility of similar actions toward humans via a very simple, extremely polite and completely non-threatening snail mail letter, certified with return receipt. More documentation of the situation.
#3, never – repeat never open a door to the outside or go outside without some form of suitable self defense; for some, that will be a cane, for some a can of Mace, for others a .45, for all it’s situational awareness. Local & state laws will apply, be fully aware of them.
#4, do not discard the value of retreat; as much as one may wish to take immediate retributive action, as much as the action may be legally justified, discovering two large (potentially aggressive) dogs in one’s yard is best handled with a telephone from indoors. It’s more documentation.
#5, do not discount the possibility – or even probability – that the dogs’ owner will have to be dealt with in a kinetic manner. Should the dogs pose a direct and immediate threat that threat will have to be resolved, even if the owner is standing 10 feet away yelling at the dogs to stop. Most states – check yours to be sure – allow use of deadly force to terminate a direct and immediate threat to life or safety, and a potential attack from a large dog who is behaving in a threatening manner qualifies. When resolving the threat continue resolving it until the threat no longer exists then stop your action(s) immediately. FYI, it’s only on TV and in the movies that the hero stops the bad guy (or bad dog) with one shot. Do not hesitate to use several shots if necessary, and carry reloads. It is entirely possible the owner will take great offense at you “murdering his dogs” and also require some sort of protective response on your part. Which is why a pile of documentation has been built previously to show the dogs are a threat, how much of a threat they are, and that the owner has been made aware of it, and if the owner has also made threats. You will need an attorney in any case, and he or she will appreciate having a lot of documentation to support your actions.
#6, if you have become the object of the dogs’ attention and been forced to resolve the threat, when the dust has settled direct your attorney to file a civil suit against the dog owner with the goal of reducing him or her to a state of abject poverty (reversing the 65%/35% client/attorney split usually helps get the attorney focused). Some people really need to pay a steep price to learn the error of their ways, and there is no reason to not provide a Real Life education. It might even result in you getting a new, better neighbor.
I come from ranching country so naturally, I would have shot the dogs.
As a matter of fact, what we refer to as “town dogs” are a pack of domestic dogs that “run” when they get together. They can be more destructive of livestock than 10 packs of Coyotes.
jtl
Alien, that seems like serious overkill for a situation that ended with no animals or people harmed, no shots fired. As far as I can see, the only animal in real danger was the horse.
Where I live, nobody calls the “cops” much. We deal with such things ourselves. Those two neighbors will probably do the same. 🙂 Seems irrational to me to involve cops, courts and lawyers in a situation that calls only for neighbors to talk to each other. But then, I don’t live in a city.
1. Shoot all dogs and horses and both owners to make sure there are no witnesses.
2. eat the horses.
I’ve shot two dogs. First was 400 yards into my property, and scared my 4 and 3 year-old children so much, they wouldn’t go outside. Warning shot on one occasion did not faze him. Few days later, I saw him chasing my 3 year-old into the house. On the stoop, .45 at my side, dog looked at me, then sidled over and peed on a tree 10 feet from house. That was his last action. Second dog – eating my chickens, no collar, no owner. His last meal. In the situation here, if no owner around, I’d’ve tried a warning shot, as dogs do understand a rifle crack. If no effect, and they resume – I shoot.
The fact that the dogs’ owner was trying to stop them changes things, even if he was doing a lousy job of it. In this situation, I probably would have slung a few pebbles at the dogs to try and get their attention away from the horse.
If the dogs had drawn blood, they would be dead. I’m sorry, but that’s intolerable.
If it was on my land or involving my horse, I would probably be more aggressive.
For that matter, I almost had to shoot a neighbor’s dog last spring. I was looking for the survey stake that marks the corner of my property, and the dog thought I was on his property and started warning me away. Since that boundary line has gotten fuzzy (which is why I was looking for the marker), I decided to back down. This time. But I had my gun drawn the entire time I was backing off.
I’m pretty sure that dog and I are going to have it out some day.
Seems a lot of people are quick to kill a dog –or do you just have a lot of cops in your audience? People that have little experience with dogs or don’t like them often misinterpret a dog’s behavior. I would only shoot a dog as a last resort, not prospectively because of what he “might” do.
My wife and I were walking our Great Dane and two dogs jumped from a second story window to go after him. Granted, I was not particularly concerned that they would hurt him…and rather more concerned that he would hurt them…but we managed to separate everyone without killing any dogs.
We live out in the country where people dump dogs they don’t want. I’ve encountered numerous dogs, some as big as 150 lbs, including German Shepherds, and I’ve never had to shoot one. In spite of steps to contain them our dogs escaped a couple of times in the past and fortunately we didn’t have neighbors that felt compelled to shoot them. When we lived in town I captured a couple of dogs that escaped from our neighbor’s fenced property when careless yard workers left a gate open. All loose dogs are not evidence of negligent owners.
I can’t be sure what I would have done in this particular case because I wasn’t there to judge but I certainly would not have shot dogs that were chasing a horse and not attacking it. My first reaction would be to help the owner get them under control –even though the owner should not have let them run loose in the first place. I’m loathe to punish a dog that is being a dog because his owner is irresponsible, though I recognize there may sometimes be no other choice. Fortunately, that’s not the way it turned in the OP.
I think that the (sort-of :-)) OP did the right thing. Since it wasn’t his land, his horse or his dogs, remaining on the side (but ready to do something if the situation got worse) worked out.
The description is not clear, but it sounds to me like the dogs were more playing than aggressive. Some herding breeds will do this instinctively, so they may be amenable to being trained out of this behavior, but, of course, that’s beyond the OP’s purview.
I’ve only had to shoot one dog in my life, and that SOB deserved it. The dog was a bully with little kids – and a slinker whenever an adult showed up. One day I heard my sister (who was 10 at the time – I was 16) screaming. I looked out the window to see her in a tree just off our property, with this dog jumping and barking and growling at her. A load of 00 buck at 10 yards eliminated the problem. I walked down the hill, and told the owner’s wife what I had done, why I had done it, where the carcass was, and that he could talk to me about it if he wanted. Never heard a word. A couple of other neighbors congratulated me.
@ML – It’s only “serious overkill” if you never have to take further action. My experience in such matters is that the dogs will eventually have to be shot by someone, and unless you’re in very rural territory where time and tradition allow for individual solutions, there will be someone from authority involved. Whether that someone wears a badge or bears a JD degree – and sometimes it’s one of each – having documentation to justify your action will be important. An hour or two making phone calls and gathering paper can prevent an expensive day spent in front of a judge.
Not sure I’m going to shoot the dogs there. Not sure it’s all that dangerous to begin with–sure, a horse can fall and break a leg. But if that’s the issue, maybe it’d be better to lock up all horses so they don’t do dangerous stuff like running around.
Personally? I’ve been chased by dogs many times on my bicycle. It’s fun for them–and fun for me. For all I know the horse was having a good time too….
Not my horse? Not my problem. However I would later go to the dog owner and tell him I’d shoot dogs to protect my own animals. No need to get angry with him, but just explain the situation to him (including the law, for what it’s worth – which ain’t much). Messages are transmitted better if they are delivered calmly.
If it was my horse and I considered the horse to be in danger, I would have shot the dogs. But that is a rotten choice either way because it’s not a good thing to make a neighbor one’s enemy for life. If one notices a tendency for the dogs to be loose, it’s better to deliver the warning before shooting the dogs, than after.
I understand why dog owners like to let their dogs run loose. I’d be tempted to do the same if they were my dogs. But dog owners must understand the consequences of that choice, and just put up with it and shut their pie holes if their dog gets shot or hit by a car. And heaven help the dog owner whose dog attacks a child.
Dogs don’t seem to understand “warning shots” as a warning. I tried that several times before I stopped wasting ammo and giving the dogs a chance to come back when the yelling guy (me) wasn’t around to kill my stuff. And after one attempt at a warning shot, the dog decided to attack me. Never again.
http://blog.kentforliberty.com/2015/07/me-vs-some-dogs.html
I take protecting my animals, family, and property seriously. I feel sorry for dog owners who don’t control their dogs, but when their problem becomes my problem (or even someone else’s in a situation I can help with) I’ll handle it.
I rehabilitate dogs that are fearful, feral, or have been involved in a bite. I specialize in German Shepherds, but have taken any that have above issues. What is different with this type of fostering is that is general a much longer commitment than typical foster situation (particularly dogs involved in bites) lasting from 6 months for a fearful dog to 1 year plus for one that was involved in a bite.
I have owned horses also, the concern about one stepping in a hole and breaking a leg is bogus IMHO. The first thing any responsible owner does is walk the pasture looking for potential problems before the horse ever gets near it. The wire fence? Horses are generally not that stupid, unless we are talking far too small a paddock to be using wire anyway.
I have shot a dog attacking cattle. Wasn’t happy about it, but it had to be done.
I am not shooting someones dog who is not actively attacking; not just chasing, animals that are not mine. An actual attack is a different matter.
Certainly the dogs owner needs to get control of his German Shepherds, it’s this type of person that hurts all responsible owners.
Lastly the having multiple dogs that are not under control and direct supervision is particularly dangerous because of the pack mentality can lead to problems far greater that any individual dog can normally get into.
I have German Shepherds that under my direction are safe to be around; even ones that have bitten in the past, unfortunately that doesn’t mean any owner can accomplish the same.
Certain dogs require an experienced handler which is why I have kept so many of the dogs I rehabilitate, they are not suitable for regular people.
Although I’ve been in several situations where I’ve found it necessary to dispatch threatening and destructive dogs, this one doesn’t sound like such an instance.
First, German Shepherds are herding dogs and there is a huge difference between dogs “chasing a horse around…not appearing to try to take it down” and dogs being predators. There is a difference in the sound dogs make when trying to kill an animal and there is a difference in their pursuit if they are seeking to kill it or if they are just chasing it around. Whether they should be doing that or not, taking lethal action when the owner is trying to catch them is way overkill in my mind besides being dangerous firing in the direction of the owner.
And the horse was kicking at the dogs but not connecting? It doesn’t sound like to me that the horse was very serious either. I’ve seen several instances when a horse decided to kick a pursuing dog and all three times the horse connected solidly.
But as I read the thing we were asked to comment on, I was picturing this nightmare scenario: 4 running objects, horse followed by dogs followed by man… all apparently not running in a straight line but around some distance away. And with a 9mm we need to determine how much lead is necessary to hit the 2 center objects without endangering either the first or the fourth. No thanks.
To me, the deciding factors are:
1. the dogs aren’t on my property
2. the horse isn’t mine
3. the dogs’ owner is trying to control his dogs
4. the horse’s owner is present
Not MY place to shoot the dogs.
The bottom line is that it depends. Those saying, “whatever, just shoot the dog” should probably get jobs as cops without further delay. For the record, I have shot stray dogs. I have lived to regret not having shot a stray dog. And I have hunted down a stray dog I was told was a danger, only to have it come to me tail wagging. I did not shoot that dog, I helped find it a shelter.
I’ve got two dogs. One runs around the desert loose – and loves to bark at what comes down the wash outside our cabin, which has occasionally caused friction with horse-riding neighbors. But he’s not destructive and he doesn’t wander, so it’s allowed. I’m aware it’s a danger to him – by now, probably so does he. Danger happens. But if somebody ever preemptively shoots him, that person will have made an enemy for life because Ghost is just an old watchdog doing his job. He’s no danger to livestock.
I have another dog that is never, ever off a leash or a tie-out cable, because he likes to kill. He could easily kill calves, and I believe he would. Also he wanders and shows up in neighbors’ yards, and they don’t like that. Frankly, if I were the local free-range rancher I’d take a dim view of my dog Little Bear. What’s worse, when he’s loose he seems to empower any dog he’s with, which would otherwise not be out looking for trouble, to join him in his latest outrage. So for his protection and everybody else’s he stays tied up.
It depends.
A couple of weeks ago I came home to see a large brown dog trotting out of my yard. I didn’t see my cat, which I had rescued about three months ago and was a good cat. The next day I found her dead in the yard. A few minutes earlier and I could have stopped it. I think if I had seen the dog kill my cat, I would have done my best to shoot it before it got out of the yard. I think I’ve seen the dog in the past in the general neighborhood, but I haven’t seen it since. It was just bad luck and bad timing.
It’s hard to tell if this shooting was justified. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3277028/Bronze-Star-combat-dog-Mike-shot-dead-bicyclist-Wyoming.html Tragically, trusting a “friend” to take the same care of your animal that you do is a risky business.
Although I’m not nearly as unconditionally nuts about dogs as some other people are, I wouldn’t have shot the dogs unless the situation was far more serious than described here. I would have had a long friendly talk with the owner, though; lots of things can happen to dogs that get out of control and go roaming freely. “Free-roaming dog” is an accident-prone lifestyle, and a lot of farmers aren’t all that friendly to strange dogs. Better safe than sorry, capisce?