I was e-talking the other day with the Infamous Oregon Law Hobbit. Turns out he and I both had the same thing on our minds: the problem of long-term thinking.
Or rather, the problem of people who don’t do it. People who won’t (can’t?) consider that Action A will lead to Consequence B.
Case in point: My freeloading neighbor. His family needs help, sometimes urgently. A few neighbors have given it. His response: he alienates the helpers. Never keeps his word. Never returns stuff he borrows. Never reciprocates. Always just expects more.
Of course, this is one reason his family is so needy. Because he doesn’t bother to think: “If you screw over the people who help you, they might not help you next time.”
Hobbit — who was a public defender and is now a judge — sees people like this (and worse) all the time.
As a freedomista, he doesn’t like the standard fines-jail-community-service treatment. He experiments with other options designed to help petty offenders think more about their own actions. (Or maybe just think more, period. He once “sentenced” a woman to read 10 books. When she reported back to him, she had become quite a fan of Nostradamus. Not exactly what he intended, but perhaps a start.)
He’s aiming toward methods that do two related things: get people to think longer term and get them to develop regular habits. “It doesn’t have to be ant-like conformity and productivity,” he says, “but at least let’s not be a drain on the system. It’s nice to help carry some of the Big Load, but if you can’t, at least carry your own.”
Regular habits may be boring; free spirits reject them. But smart free spirits find ways to make their irregular habits work for them. For the average Joe or Josie just trying to get by, those two things — long-term thinking and regular (good) habits — are keys to the kingdom.
Then fewer of them would be standing in front of Hobbit explaining that they didn’t show up yesterday for their court date because their truck got impounded two weeks ago. (“And why didn’t you make some other arrangement to get here?” Duhhhhh.)
Fewer of them would be going on personal finance sites and asking questions like, “My credit score is 537 and my car just got repossessed and my credit cards are maxed out except the four that are already in collections. But I’m tired of renting so how do I get 100 more points on my score in three months so I can have a house?”*
These are “People who really have no sense of the past, no sense of the future, no understanding of cause and effect, and just sort of live in the ‘now’ like some sort of land dwelling sea cucumber.”
Never mind that they’ve been encouraged in their attitudes by the entitlement state. Even libertopia would have some people like this. “Badly brought up,” as our grandmothers might have said.
It’s admittedly (and literally) paternalistic, but Hobbit says sometimes being a judge is like being a father to overgrown children — a father who’s trying to Give a Responsibility Clue rather than a meaningless punishment.
We freedomistas talk a lot about responsibility and about restitution by criminals to their victims. (Hobbit’s judge motto: “Restitution, remediation, reintegration.”) But how to get from theory to real-world results? How go the specifics?
So here’s a two-part question for you: 1) Are there people in the world who will simply never develop long-term thinking no matter how many carrots, sticks, or major reality checks they’re given? And 2) If you were a judge (you can pretend it’s in some free-market arbitration system if you can’t see yourself as the kind of judge who gets a government paycheck), what would you do to try to instill long-term thinking in hapless, aimless, clueless short-term thinkers who came before you in court?
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* Which is, I’m sorry to report, an extremely typical question on a certain site I visit. Except I’ve fixed the spelling and grammar.
Matthew 26:11, “The poor you will always have with you…” answers question #1. Yes. Some people are so present-oriented that they will never learn.
The Old Testament solution is a possible answer to #2, though it isn’t politically correct. A person who racked up so many debts that he couldn’t pay would be sold into indentured servitude (7 years max). His purchaser would attempt to integrate him into his household, demonstrating by example the sort of decisions needed to live prosperously. The owner would attempt to train him with good habits–with a whip if need be.
At the end of seven years (or less) the former debtor was given a new start in life. Hopefully the lesson stuck.
This solution isn’t possible today since only the government is allowed to own slaves (prison, military, school) and bureaucrats are incapable of instilling proper values in anyone.
A further note:
Someone who realized he was messed up and wanted help could voluntarily enter into indentured servitude. Parents who couldn’t care for their children could “sell” them–this was almost identical to the old apprenticeship system.
1. Yes. Tho not as many as people may think.
2. I can only say what helped me. At 34 I was newly divorced and financialy ruined. A big part of that divorce was my inability to manage our financial life. I was very much the “credit score 537…” example. I was told by my lawyer to take a free class at our local community college. It was a class called Basic Living Math. The 12 week class taught everything from how to balance a check book to how to read the stock index. From how auto loans worked to how savings account and CD’s worked. How interest works. How credit cards work ie if you only make minium payments you will never pay off the debt. How the rent to own stores all over my community worked. How and more importantly why to save money. Maybe these are life lessons everyone is expected to know. I can only say that nobody in that class knew that after they paid $65 a month for 36 months you had ended up spending over $2,000 for a $200 dvd player.
Education helped me understand what I was doing and why it wasn’t working.
1. I think that the numbers will continue to increase. Besides being brainwashed into instant gratification and entitlement, mostly by TV and pop culture, most average folks are very mentally and physically unhealthy. Between eating a typical SAD – laden with sugar, GMO’s, and disease-causing chemicals, and living in a toxic environment – homes filled with synthetic chemicals, their brains will never be able to function normally, no matter what else they do.
2. If I were a judge, I’d order them to remove the TV from the home, clean out their kitchen and replace the frankenfood with real food, and remove all toxic chemicals (toxic cleaners, formaldehyde air fresheners, toxic off-gassing furnishings) from the home, and tell them to read whatever they like. Six months later, I’d then order them to read books I’d chosen for them. 🙂
“So here’s a two-part question for you: 1) Are there people in the world who will simply never develop long-term thinking no matter how many carrots, sticks, or major reality checks they’re given? And 2) If you were a judge (you can pretend it’s in some free-market arbitration system if you can’t see yourself as the kind of judge who gets a government paycheck), what would you do to try to instill long-term thinking in hapless, aimless, clueless short-term thinkers who came before you in court?”
1) Yes, there are people like that; I’ve known one for years and she’s now in her 70s. (In fact I was like that, but was stubborn enough as a kid to question everything.) When you’ve always been taken care of (or not cared about at all), raised not to think or plan but to do what you’re told as if there’s only one right way, and not allowed to make mistakes or judge results for yourself – you don’t grow up looking for cause-and-effect, you don’t understand there is such a thing.
2) How long is “long-term” to instill responsibility? Give them a garden to grow: The miscreant can buy a large planter from Walmart, add potting mix, plant 2-3 vegetables (say tomato and basil seedlings in late spring, or carrot seeds and onion sets in the fall), take photos of the results every month to send to the judge, and bring the produce to court when report time comes around. Oregon is a good growing state, and I suspect it has its share of community gardens, so becoming a member of one of those might be an alternative, as well as it helping to learn to cooperate. There’s nothing like seeing a shriveled up plant next to a healthy one to make you want to learn what you’ve done wrong.
We can’t all have green thumbs, but I’m not convinced there is such a thing; rather it takes some learning, determination and time. A sense of ownership, responsibility, and desire to see the results through to the end, will follow naturally from gardening.
If you were in some free-market arbitration system the Fed would likely have been abolished, sound money would prevail, goberment intervention would be lowered or non-existent and there wouldn’t be a need to change People’s time preferences, they would have done so on their own.
I wanted to hash out something short in support of this but I’ve run out of time to spend on this, so maybe these bits will be of use:
“The bigger and more intrusive government becomes, the more time-preferences rise” – Doug French
“Time preference is the propensity to trade or not to trade present goods for claims to future goods. High time preference is a reluctance to make such trades, and low time preference is a willingness to make such trades. …
Hoppe has shown that the very process of trading present goods for future goods results in lowering the time preferences of both oneself and others, resulting in a double spiral: a spiraling down of time preferences, and a spiraling up of wealth – a process he rightly calls “civilization.” …
One of the hopes for the growth of material wealth in Iraq is the adoption of a lower time preference. How can this be accomplished? Security, commerce, and friendship.” …
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig3/guillory3.html
“The modern state thrives on and encourages a higher time preference, and thus the process of decivilization for society as a whole.” – Anthony Gregory
“Any child raised to be obedient to the State, in such a democracy, will conclude that high-time-preference behavior is good. …
There’s only one way out of such a dilemma, for those who seek economic success in a democracy: rehabilitation of low time preference habits in the general populace. Since deference towards politicians inculcates the habits of high time preference, the restoration of general respect for the low-time-preference mode of life requires putting an end to the practice of revering politicians. They have to be seen as serviceable, and the ones who are good at it seen as rating a kind of cold esteem.” …
http://www.lewrockwell.com/ryan/ryan27.html
… “According to Keynes, the saver is a dead load on the economy; the borrower is what keeps the economy moving. …
[Solution: Learn about Austrian economics.]
The glamour of war in the mid-twentieth century has helped spread a high-time-preference culture throughout society …
[Solution: de-glamorize war.]
http://www.lewrockwell.com/ryan/ryan33.html
To regain our senses, our humanity, and our self-ownership, it is imperative that we repeal the Sixteenth Amendment. …
It is the income tax (which feeds America’s obese nanny state) that leads to high rates of time preference. Murray Rothbard explains the connection, between high rates of time preference and income taxes, in his magnum opus Man, Economy, and State. …
For a free and productive society to reemerge, the Sixteenth Amendment must be repealed — thereby abolishing the income tax. If we do not, then high-time-preference Americans will foolishly continue to consume capital and will leave the nation impoverished.” …
http://www.lewrockwell.com/englund/englund19.html
“…save money rather than borrow it, clip coupons, drive an old car, eat at inexpensive Chinese or Thai restaurants, etc. “This is pretty old-fashioned, fuddy-duddy stuff,” Ruff writes, “and it’s really out of style in today’s live-it-up environment, but it has worked throughout history and it will work now and in the future.” …
Because of the growth of government and its property rights intrusions, the supply of present and future goods is being reduced, serving to “not only raise time-preference rates (with given schedules) but also time-preference schedules,” writes Hoppe. …
http://www.lewrockwell.com/french/french138.html
Read this:
Time Preference, Government, and the Process of De-Civilization – From Monarchy to Democracy
http://www.hanshoppe.com/publications/time_preference.pdf
“…I think a person must have this fire in the belly: his calling. I define calling as the most important thing you can do in which you would be most difficult to replace. This may be a person’s occupation, but only rarely. …
Fire in the belly keeps a person from getting sidetracked. He may go over a cliff. … But it keeps him moving forward. …
This outlook requires faith in the future. But it requires more than faith. It has to be accompanied by future orientation. A person needs to discount the future by a low interest rate in order to maintain a high present value of his forfeited income.” …
http://www.lewrockwell.com/north/north981.html
Instilling faith in the future, good luck with that.
Claire,
I hate to suggest it, but have you considered that freeloading may actually be the long term plan of the freeloader, and that he is teaching his kids to live the same way? People like him are like any other parasite, they feed until the host can not (or will not) continue to provide, then they move on. Hopefully, it won’t take too long for him to burn through his hosts in your neighborhood and he’ll move on soon.
1) I think long term thinking is instilled from youth, and like anything else, it becomes harder to learn with age. When started early enough, the lesson is simple: Know where you are going to put your foot down before you pick it up.
2) Isn’t this really asking if I would fight Darwinism?
1 – Always will be people like that as it is , unfortunately a cyclic process. My mother is like this, she was sheltered, first by her parents and second by my father, and third by the state from really understanding what consequenses arise from her actions or lack thereof. Now she works for me and is 59. According to her she is “looking forward to retirement” which is funny since she had to borrow money to pay for a $50 dollar repair on her car the other day.
2- Let them understand what consequences really are. My brother was a screw up as well for many years he experimented with hard drugs that literally fried his brain. He got busted enough thaqt you would have thought he’d learn, but the “consequence” of jail time wasn’t a deterrent to him since he was often homeless. Prison wasn’t that bad for him since they were minor offenses he wasn’t in with the really tough folks. The one thing that got to him was having to give up his first, and only, child for adoption. His girlfriend of 18 got pregnant and luckily for the child they both realized they were not fit to raise an infant. He cried for days after giving up his child, and finally committed to giving up hard drugs. He now has a job, savings, and is trying to buy land to live off the grid with his new girlfriend and her 2 kids. The gist is design the consequnece to truly impact the individual.
O/T – Water Lily I have to say that your punishment plan really does sound like something our overreaching government would come up with.
Gotta start them when they’re young. “You can’t teach an old dog new tricks” is in existence for a reason. That basic life math class Sam Johnson wrote about is a good idea however some people are so adverse toward “going to school” that they’ll need other things. As for someone like your freeloading neighbor, I’d try to get the neighborhood to shun this guy. There is a reason why “Tough Love” is tried by a lot of people, because they were at their wits end on what else to do that this was their last resort.
It sounds like you are discussing and describing the majority of politicians big and small. The situation won’t change. I work in a proffession who’s people are known for their ability to plan. They make 5 and 10 year plans and keep them updated constantly. They also consistently fail to follow through on thos plans. It is why they have to keep updating them. The individuals in charge will not sacrifice what they want at that moment, or ever consider the greater good other than pay lip service to it. It is about building monuments to themselves and furthering their careers.
1) Yes, there are people like that.
2) I would be consistent in applying restitution. If there is no gain in being “hapless, aimless, clueless short-term thinkers” maybe they will change. If not, at least the harm they can do to others will be mitigated. And, since “1)”, isn’t that the best outcome anyway?
The more I think about it, the more I come to realize that under the current national schizophrenia (part socialism, part crony capitalism, part fascism, part corporate sponsorship) regular people aren’t supposed to succeed. The carrots and sticks are rigged that way. Try to suceed, get robbed by govt. clerks and smacked back down with the others. Fail, and everyone else is robbed(taxed) to make you able to survive as a failure. It is unsustainable. The people who want to succeed either give up and join the failures, leave, or find a way around the rulers. The failure population grows. Eventually you have a population of serfs under the heel of aristocrats, with a group of outlaws off to the side laughing and throwing peanut shells at the whole spectacle.
So, yes, there are people who will live in the present no matter what. Soon that will be the rule rather than the exception. If I were judge I would be pragmatic about it. Teaching people with no concept of time is like teaching a dog to fly. You can flap your arms as much as you like, but that dog has no idea whats going on. I would have them pick up litter off the highway. Though they wouldn’t learn anything from it, at least the roads would be less messy.
1. I have no idea. We live in a culture where personal responsibility is frowned upon to the point where people will look at you like you’re crazy if you talk about doing things like buying a car that you can actually afford. Most people seem to be genuinely unable to even conceive of saving up to buy what they want instead of piling on the debt.
2. I learned responsibility by asking myself, “what would my parents do in this situation,” and then doing the opposite. This isn’t very broadly applicable, though. That class that sam johnson described sounds like a good step, though–all the things he mentioned it covering I had to teach myself, and I know most people don’t bother.
1. Yes, Don’t know why. Some were never taught and some never learned. Law of nature although I agree with most here that such behavior seems to be encouraged by the state.
2. I would teach all by setting public examples. This would perhaps encourage long term thinking in the witnesses.
Mala in se, restitution first followed by public stocks, public floggings or public execution, depending upon the severity of the crime.
Mala prohibita, if there is a victim (besides the state) restitution first, then public shaming. If victimless, write a one page letter as to why the law is unnecessary.
Law Hobbit, as a freedomista, how do you enforce victimless crimes such as drugs?
The usually Really Good Replies (TM) 🙂 here.
Sam Johnson — good for you and great that you had access to such a class. I’ve often wondered why those financial basics aren’t part of standard high school curricula. (Is it paranoid of me to agree that TPTB actually want people to fail financially so they’ll be more malleable and dependent?)
just waiting — Mr. Freeloader is certainly teaching his children, though I doubt he’s doing it by plan. Perhaps when these bright little kids see how bad the results are, they’ll go out of their way to live differently; we can hope.
Jim B. — I doubt an organized shunning is necessary. Mr. Freeloader generates mini-shunnings wherever he goes. The fact that he was coming to my house for favors when I live five blocks away tells me he’s having a hard time getting nearer neighbors to help. And next time I see the neighbor who gave him a computer at my request, I’m going to give him a little cautionary message.
Tahn — I’ve asked Hobbit that question myself & have found his answer to be practical, if not philosophically “pure.” I’ll leave any further explanation up to him — with thanks for having allowed me to take his name in vain.
I don’t think that’s paranoid at all. If people understood their own finances, they might start asking awkward questions about government finances.
Excellent post. Yes, there are people who will never think long-term…. and govt. policies are encouraging more people to become short sighted.
As for imagining myself to be a judge – geez, it’s too early in the week for that punishment.
Let’s work through a few of these to dig out more – or deeper – commentary.
Chronologically, though giving pride of place to our delightful and thoughtful hostess:
Claire – Here ya go. Let Round Two begin! 😉
Water lily – how do you enforce that? Do we have TV police making regular sweeps through houses? What if they go to friends’ houses to watch (I grew up with a grandmother who had one of the first color TVs in the area – the place was FULL of kids on certain nights)? Many of them are quasi-literate at best. How do I *make* them read books if I can’t even make them show up in court on time?
Pat – We’re out here in the desert. Not exactly the best growing area if you don’t have massive amounts of aquifer-based or river-based water to work with. And what if, like me, a defendant has a brown thumb? The best weed control I can imagine would be me TRYING to grow dandelions. I agree about trying to develop responsibility, but one also has to try and work with whatever (frequently minimal) skills they have.
Just Waiting – it’s a strategy. It’s working. There’s no incentive for anything else, I agree.
Matthew – part of the problem is that they DON’T understand consequences. That’s the whole part about “not grokking cause and effect.” The police – and, by implication, my own humble self – are just “picking on them.” I can yell as much as I want (I do a GREAT pretense of anger) about sending them to jail if they don’t do whatever-it-was-that-was-ordered, and nevertheless a month or two later there’s a warrant with their name on it or their not-so-smiling face on the video from the jail. “The future” just isn’t real to them.
Jim B. – they live in neighborhoods that are sub-groups, and you’re not likely to get somebody to “shun” his buddy who may well have some of the same offenses on HIS rap sheet. Shunning only works when you can get the whole community on board, which is not going to happen with this (or any other city’s) lot.
Kent – where, though, does the restitution come from? Money does not magically appear in their pockets, whatever they get has to come from somewhere – or someone – else.
Tahn – as I said to Claire on the issue, “very mildly.” Oregon is decriminalized, so the only way the drug issue comes up is when people get stupid with them – e.g. smoking marijuana in public – and so the minimal fines are more in the way of a penalty for being stupid.
Of course there are such people. Both time preference and ability span rather wide ranges in the human species. We have erected a society designed to create rather large numbers of people who have been carefully trained not to think and to feel and act helpless.
Most folks can be taught IF they are self motivated. Our present system punishes success and teaches parasitical people to remain helpless and dependent on the government.
What do I do about them? Nothing. I avoid parasites once I’ve identified them. I don’t widely publicize my complaints, although I might share information with members of my phyle or others I thought might be endangered by the parasite.
I strongly suspect that when the gravy train stops running so frequently and so chock full, a lot of people will suddenly discover that they can plan ahead after all. Hunger is a powerful motivator. A few might prove to be so helpless or clueless that they would starve, but that number is almost certainly extremely small, and might be zero.
As for the job of judge, I would resign immediately and leave the area in haste. I don’t employ violence to achieve my goals. I don’t associate with people who do so.
I would even resign a position as a free-market arbitrator. That is a tough job that takes real skills, ones that I mostly lack. I’ve met a very few people who were good at this and marveled at what they could do. I’d not be worthy of the fee, the trust, or the responsibility, so I would politely decline to serve. If pressed, I might suggest some people I know with such talents.
Ironically, I read the article on how Hoarders can be oblivious to their messes just before I came here….Seems that their brains just work differently…(http://vitals.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/08/06/13147282-why-arent-hoarders-bothered-by-all-that-junk-scientists-find-a-clue?lite)…..So maybe #1 question’s answer is that their brains just aren’t active in those important areas, LOL…..
As for #2, I wouldn’t want to be in that position….it’s the equivalent of bashing your head against a brick wall constantly…..
naturegirl — Fascinating link. And both your comments ring some bells.
I also could never work as a judge (for many reasons). And in animal rescue, we also run into hoarders — of a different but related sort. Our more patient members end up acting like a parent to some folks who mistreat animals out of ignorance or willful lack of understanding.
Couldn’t put up with ’em myself.
I think everyone can be instructed on how to do something, or to think before they act, (and it takes time) but making it stick is another problem entirely….If their brains don’t even recognize their differences from others, then getting them to understand how to take care of certain situations all on their own may never happen (let go of their hands and they revert back to what’s familiar)…..And since it’s a brain anomaly, and not just limited to hoarding tendencies or lack of responsibility, it’s probably way out of the common peoples’ patience quotas to even try to help them out, LOL…..so yeah, Claire, I’m with you (on your last sentence), hehe……
I had a student–charming, intelligent, and totally incapable of considering the consequences of any of his actions. He was capable of seeing what he had done wrong after the fact but never thought about future actions. He failed 4 out 6 classes in the first semester of his freshman year of high school. He saw that result and passed everything the second semester, but his schedule was messed up for the rest of the first three years of high school. He could tell others very eloquently of what had happened to him and why but not apply the lessons to other situations. He got involved in a drug deal that ended with a “friend” murdering the dealer. Since he drove the get-away car, he got a long prison sentence. Afterward he was very sorry for the victim and unhappy that he had been so stupid. However it only too late as was the usual case. The really sad thing was that he had a part-time job that he loved (he had just finished high school and was planning to go to trade school) and was not short of money nor was he a drug user himself. A total waste of potential. I still get miserable whenever I think of what he could have been.
Sometimes we may get into situations that we’d know better but couldn’t avoid out of sense of obligation. Like say family. One could have, say, invested in something with a family member for a significant amount of money but have no way to extricate oneself cleanly when the other partner made certain decisions that the first didn’t expect. The partner refuses to let the first get out with his money until the partner is good and ready to do it and feels like doing so.
He should have remember the old saying “Neither lender nor borrower be when it comes to family and friends”.
Meaning don’t get into money affairs with people you’re closed to.
IOLhobbit- I’m imagining a free society, not the one we currently live in. I couldn’t be an arbitrator or a judge here and now.
So, my answer is that in this free society, the restitution can’t be forced. It’s application and amount is determined by the arbitrator (who is agreed upon by both parties) to be the proper thing. Now, if the offender doesn’t pay, his refusal to meet his obligations is publicized however the slighted party feels appropriate. In our connected world it would be hard for a debtor to escape his debts, but if he chooses to leave and try to begin anew, at least he won’t victimize the same people again. And, his previous victims are free to report his refusal to whoever provides a “rating” service in this free society, or “follow” him wherever he goes, to warn potential victims, until he makes good.
So, IOLHobbit… So, all: what are we left with? People who won’t – and apparently can’t – think, can’t plan ahead, can’t comprehend cause-and-effect, can’t LEARN (often from their own experiences); we might as well give up on them – is that it?
I tend not to believe this – maybe because I don’t want to – but if it’s true, why are we beating our brains out over them?
Is this, as sam johnson says, just a matter of education? Or is it a genetic defect (perhaps a direct descendent from a Neanderthal who slipped in among us)? Or maybe a nurturing defect (blame it on the parents)?
I’m being facetious here, in part. But why should we, as libertarians, care?
We are not responsible for others’ actions; nor can we reach everyone – we know this from trying to “convert” them to libertarianism and the free market system. Some people just don’t want to hear it. (The failure of education, in this case.) If so, we have to let them go and try elsewhere.
But let’s not kill ourselves over *their* mental/intellectual weaknesses and inconsistencies. We already take on a great burden by trying to change the nature of society (read influence of faith and force over the millenia). We live in the 21st C. where the future – that which they can’t
understand – is already here. Leave them behind and let’s get on with our lives; they will die out soon enough when TSHTF.
I think we should mind our own business and refuse to take any responsibility for such people
People who give them credit have themselves to blame
Actually if our over reaching government passed a similar sentence, they would make the offender eat USDA approved, government-subsidized junk food and use FDA/EPA approved toxins to keep the individuals sick and stupid.
I left high school as promptly as possible without quite dropping out. It wasn’t that it had nothing for me, but rather like trying to watch a good movie in a theater where 30 kids are playing paintball and Dance Dance Revolution and shouting, I just wasn’t going to get anything out of it.
I found “The System” appalling and luckily hooked up with an internship and a guidance counselor who saw the situation for what it was, so my last two years were a skeleton schedule designed to meet bare minimums. I think I only went from 7:30-10:15a my senior year, then went to work.
Anyway, most people, “The Hoards”, seemed quite content with the whole thing. They were shuttled and shoved from one assembly station to the next while the “Staff” seemed very much more interested in behavior (attitude, conformity, obedience) than any sort of aptitude or interest in learning. There were some exceptions, but those teachers stood out almost as much as I did and didn’t really seem to have a future there.
I think its an unintentionally engineered systematic failure creating strong pathological tendencies toward dependency, whether chemical or financial or otherwise.
The natural drive, curiosity, and above all, strong independent will for making decisions and experiencing consequences (ie, the very definitions of responsibility and learning) that are inborn to most humans are relentlessly beat down for twelve consecutive years. The outcome of meek indecisive ignorant dependent minds looking for a place where they can go to conform to orders is assured, and the workplace doesn’t want that. Welfare is the only welcoming beacon.
I think the school system needs the kind of reform that can only happen by essentially shutting it all down. Vouchers are the path, they only obvious way to get there from here.
I have no idea how to fix these kinds of people once they are adults, but ultimately, treating the symptoms isn’t a cure.
I agree with Jim B.-the best way is to start out young-my parents taught me the basics, and made it fun! I went to a public school, but was continually “homeschooled” though not in any official sense.
That, and you continually learn things as you go along-I do. I screw up more often than I like to admit, but I try to learn from it. Read more, try new things, and just get out. It’s a great big universe filled with wonderful things, few of which you will see on the idiot box.
I have a couple “pro slackers” in my family..and they never learn anything from their mistakes, and wonder why everyone doesn’t rush in to save them from their repeated mistakes. I’ve made the mistake in the past of “loaning” family money. That was one of my many “learning experiences”. These types will get a job when all other options have failed. Another big mistake I’ve made is falling for a big sob story from family,and allowing them to stay with me-a learning experience I remember all too well. I was more mad at myself for falling for it than I was at them for pullling that stunt.
Some people need a gentle nudge in the right direction, others never get it. Most. it seems,just need a nudge.
I think question #1 might need to be rephrased in order to get an accurate answer. I’m sure there are people who, due to handicap or brain injury, are physically incapable of long-term planning. But, if you’re referring to those who aren’t in that catagory, things get more complicated. I’m quite sure that for every person there is some goal, some punishment, or some teaching tactic that would motivate them to start thinking long-term and taking resposnability, but for some people it might be so unusual or obscure that it takes a while to find. So, the question is, are there people for whom the proper motivating technique is something that is so unlikely to be found, that for practical purposes it could be considered impossible? Yes. But here’s the rub: how is Mr. Hobbit, as a judge, to know whether or not the next thing he tries would work, or whether it’s time to give up on that person?
As for question #2, I’d try and make the punishment related to the crime while still trying to make it a “teaching moment”. (For those who don’t like the idea of being a judge, and neither do I, substitute “parent”.)
As an example, one of my favorite “Cosby Show” moments was in the episode where Rudy and her friends put a bunch of makeup on and snuck into a nightclub that didn’t check ID’s. Their parents said that, since they were obviously so desperate to hang out with older people, their punishment would be to volunteer at the senior’s center every weekend for several months.
This is a timely post. I’ve been wrestling with the “how to teach responsibility” question for a couple days. I’m a nit-picker, it’s my nature. I nit-pick my own stuff, I nit-pick articles I read (journalists know nothing about science, grrrr), and, unfortunately, I nit-pick any children I’m watching. My new sister-in-law is the same way. My brother, on the other hand, has what at first glance seems like a very laissez-faire parenting style. He makes sure my nephew cleans up his own messes, earns his money instead of being given everything, and when he gives a punishment he tries to make it relate to the “crime”, but if you were watchin them in public you’d swear he wasn’t even looking where his son was. My nephew is the most polite, well-bahaved 10-year old you could ever hope to meet, so obviously my brother has been doing something right. I’ve been working hard the last few years to bite my tongue more and nag my nephew less. But my brother’s new wife has decided it’s her job to be strict because my brother “isn’t doing anything” (her words). She’s trying to parent in the style she was raised in, even though she and her siblings are all, well, lets just say it’s a very high-stress household when 7 people are screaming at each other.
It’s an interesting juxtaposition.