I don’t mean what do you expect from government. I can make a pretty good guess at that. I’m thinking of the ordinary Joe or Josie who’s shocked and indignant over and over again upon finding that government isn’t a caring parent or diligent servant.
Was talking with a local real estate agent today. He’s had a sale pending for two months. Deal is solid. Buyer’s credit is golden. House has appraised for more than the selling price. No problems whatsoever.
Except it’s a VA loan and there’s one piece of paper missing (a DD-214, for ye of military experience). The buyer has an inch-thick file that contains everything from his discharge papers to documents from two previous VA loans. But his DD-214 probably disappeared during one of the earlier loans. Only the VA can supply it now. It’s supposed to take 2-3 weeks. Three days if you pay to expedite the process.
But (this will come as no surprise to anybody who’s dealt with the VA; or any DMV for that matter) instead it’s been a two-month runaround. “We’re understaffed.” “No, we can’t email you; you have to phone us.” “All those records were lost when the plane hit the Pentagon on 9/11.”* “We’re working on it but we can’t give you any date.” “Don’t call us; we’ll call you.”
The buyer is a Vietnam era vet and basically the VA is saying, “He’s too old to buy a house because we’re too lazy to dredge up records from way back when.” The bank’s been working on it. The agent’s been working on it. The buyer’s been working on it. Nada.
The poor agent is understandably livid.
What’s less understandable is that he’s also shocked: “How can the government treat Vietnam vets this way??!”
But has there ever been a moment since the 1960s when the fedgov hasn’t treated Vietnam vets (not to mention everybody) like used toilet paper? Luring young men with promises or browbeating them with threats then tossing them aside has been the way of governments for centuries. And Vietnam was among the worst.
The agent is a Vietnam vet himself. Surely he knows this?
—–
This story may yet end well, but only because of a remarkable coincidence. The agent was a Marine in some very dirty, hardcore job in Vietnam. He’s still in touch with surviving members of his unit. One of his officers just happens to have risen all the way to the Joint Chiefs of Staff before retiring. He’s still in DC. Still able to pull strings.
This week the agent finally had it. He called the general. Within 10 minutes, our local congressthing — in person — called the agent “at the request of a friend.” Now the congressthing’s office is calling everybody in sight to wrangle a DD-214 out of the VA. The VA — the agency that had no email day before yesterday — emailed the bank this morning. Nothing solid yet. Bureaucracy finally in action, though.
But anybody who didn’t have a DC-based Marine general to pull out of a hat would be out of luck.
—–
Why are people so shocked! dismayed! surprised! indignant! when this is how things work — if you can call it working at all?
—–
* I got curious enough to try to confirm this claim about records being lost on 9/11. It makes sense that much besides human life would have disappeared that day. But I can’t find a word about this. Besides — 12 years later you still can’t access your backups?
I don’t think they store military records in the Pentagon. I believe the archive that would hold Vietnam Era DD214 is in ST Louis. They did have a big fire there a couple of decades ago and might of lost records. I doubt many had been converted to digits or even microfich.
Matt — Interesting, thanks. I had no idea. The knowledge that people hereabouts have in their heads is eternally remarkable.
Even without conversion to digits or film, though … well, leave it to the fedgov not to back up data.
Fedgov only backs up date that they can use against someone.
Oh, they’ve got the space to do it, they just choose not to.
After all, they’ve got all the space required for storing encrypted communications while they wait for one of the various attempts at end-running the encryption method to work out.
That is the way things work in the 3rd and 4th world, you have to know some one or you have to pay or both. The records are kept in St. Louis but I don’t understand why he doesn’t have his own copy of the DD214. You get that when you ETS or retire.
Interesting and weird about records lost in the Pentagon in 2001. Seems like they would waive that form for the vet if that were the case. Thousands of records must have been lost that day, right? If Rumsfeld couldn’t account for trillions, then all the Pentagon accounting records were conveniently lost soon after, so he couldn’t ever account for it, why should anyone care about a vet’s DD-214? 😉
Remember how GW Bush’s national guard records were destroyed in a fire?
Funny coincidence: I was finally sent my father’s WWII military records, along with an apology note explaining why some of his papers were damaged. There indeed was a fire and most of the records burned. After that, I decided to be nice and assume that GWB’s records had been kept in the same place as my father’s and really had (accidentally?) burned. Or not…;-)
leonard — His copy of his DD-214 was probably taken by a lender and accidentally not returned when he got one of his previous VA loans. Nobody even knew it was missing until all this started.
Water Lily — Funny you should mention Bush’s missing records. I’d forgotten all about that until I tried to verify or disprove this claim about 9/11. Then … I found so many stories on that they drowned out everything else.
VA (and FHA) loans don’t save the buyer very much money. Certainly not enough to be worth the extra layer of bureaucracy and the hassle that accompanies it.
After they find the guy’s DD-214, they will most likely want to inspect the dwelling and order random changes to it. A friend of mine had to have a (ugly and unnecessary) hand rail installed on his front steps when he bought a house – because the VA said so.
Unless your finances are such that you “need” help from the VA, you might as well just buy a house like “normal people.”
Never thought I’d be defending the fedgov or the VA, but after reading some of the above comments, it’s obvious to me some have had no personal experiences with buying a home through the VA, and probably need to do some fact checking before writing. Back in the late 60’s, we had virtually no money, but were able to purchase our first home through the VA with no money down. I think our total move in cost was about $350.00. Fast forward to last year, and we are now retired with very little money and tired of renting. After checking with our local bank, we discover that I still qualify for a VA home loan, and do not have to come up with the customary 20% down which would have eliminated us from the housing market, probably forever. Long story short, we are now homeowners again, and the entire process took less than 60 days from the date of applying to move-in. Yes, I still had a copy of my DD-214, and our credit was good,but we encountered none of the “horror stories” that others have recounted. And no, we have no high-ranking friends in the military or gub- mint, just “ordinary people” with not a lot of money that saved a bundle by utilizing a benefit that I earned many years ago. Now obtaining VA educational benefits, that’s another story……
I thought most vets had their DD214s recorded at the county recorder’s office after discharge. We were all told to do that. I did. When I needed a copy to apply for health benefits, bingo. I still have the original, somewhere, gods know where in this mess, but I didn’t have to look. It saved a lot of time. As to the records in St. Louis, I hope mine burned, and will leave that without further comment.
Not only were records burned, some records in drawers in file cabinets had blood poured on them making them unreadable. Unless there were multiple fires/blood pourings, this was done by Vietnam War protesters. When I requested the records of a relative, the copies I got showed the originals were both burnt in places and bloody and some records were missing, but unlike some other file cabinets a few pages did more or less survive – less than half of my relative’s service record remained. There were apparently no known backup copies when the protesters struck, so the information I wanted is gone forever. The copies came with an apology and explanation from NARA I’ve often wondered at the protesters’ choice of a target. I don’t know anything about NARA’s filing system
but my relative’s records were from WWI, not Vietnam. I suppose the fire and blood was a general protest against all wars.
Backups?? WTF are backups?
As a Service Officer for the American Legion, I will tell you now no personal records of veterans are kept at the pentagon. You need to contact St Louis for your DD-214. Now I understand it is a big inconvenience but EVERY former service member has is drilled into them that they need to keep several copies of that form. It is the holy grail of military records. It helps you get everything you need and it can keep you from getting it too. Every vet is told to take a copy down to the courthouse and have it filed away for them. So many do not. I have to say it would not be a problem if this vet has his act squared away. Now that I have said that I will address the VA.. Understaffed Overworked and depending on what state it’s in totally worthless! If someone has this vets info tell him to go to a Veterans Organization . Any of us be it mine or the DAV or the VFW,FRA etc. And talk to the service officer. I can guarantee they can help this vet very quickly.
Doug Uhlmann
Adjutant/Service Officer
Post 110 The American Legion
Virginia Beach, Virginia
Never give your DD214 to anyone, make copies. Keep it locked up. We all paid a price to earn that piece of paper.
@ Old Painter: I was never told to have my (multiple) DD-214s registered with the county clerk.
Even if I had been I wouldn’t have done it. Once you do it it is a public record that anyone can get a copy of.
The form has your name, DOB, and social security number.
Retired Navy Chief Cryptologic Technician
I didn’t see anyone mention another reason for all the foot draggings. Pure laziness. I also think most of them are clock watchers, the moment it hits 5, they’re outta there.
Supposedly government workers are some of the busiest workers on the planet, but I think they’re just playing catch-up for all the work they didn’t do before. Besides with all the benefits and the reputation of how hard it is to fire government workers, why should they work hard? Remoras(Workers) hang around Sharks(Governments) looking for an easy meal, save their own energy swimming but sucking onto the sides of the Shark and let him do all the work.
Hanza, Thank You for your Service. However, the court holding your DD214 does not make it a public record. When I first heard this as a test I tried to access another post members DD214. The court told me to go suck an egg. Now it may be different where you are but here in Virginia Beach it won’t happen.
Jim B. As post service officer I get to work with the VA quite a bit. While there are those who work exactly as you describe. Many more work themselves ragged trying to take care of our vets. Unfortunately, the VA saw it in their best interest to hire Young college graduates instead of Vets who understand the system better. In my observations and dealing with the VA, I see many more that eat, sleep, breath Veterans.
Doug Uhlmann
Adjutant/Service Officer
Post 110 The American Legion
Virginia Beach, Virginia
My ex-wife knew how important my DD-214 was, and took it when she left, then claimed to have not taken it, then said she did take it on accident, but “lost it”.
I went on an online site to request a copy from the VA and had it in less than a month, at no cost. I was quite surprised at how fast I received it in the mail.
Latigo Morgan — Glad you were able to get your DD-214 easily. That’s the way it’s supposed to be. Not happening here …
Doug Uhlmann — Thanks for sharing your expertise.
Another story:
My somewhat disabled veteran cousin lives with us. Couple years back my wife and she were in a fenderbender. It was the other driver’s fault, so his insurance company paid.
My wife collected all her medical bills (minimal, thank goodness) and the insurance agent reimbursed her. Took about three weeks.
My cousin was taken to the emergency room in pain. (She always is, but this was aggravated.) Treated and released. But she was still hurting the next day, so she checked in to the local VAMC overnight to have her pain meds monitored and adjusted.
So when she got her medical bills together for the claim she had to have EMS, ER, and VAMC bills together before the agent could issue her reimbursement for any of it. We had the EMS and ER bills within a week.
Even with us contacting our Congressman (and my reporter wife and my gun activist self are on a first-name basis with him) and his active intervention it took FOURTEEN MONTHS for the VA to come up with a freaking bill.
This is indeed an awful story; however, I learned early if you can’t pay cash, do not buy it. Everything I own is paid for and I have no CC debt. I am not bragging, just sayin.’
Such is the nature of large, monopolistic organizations. Yes, some people in them ARE competent and provide good service. But accompanied with that is lots of confusion and laziness. Not to mention stupid rules, like making everything depend on one form.
[Hanza, Thank You for your Service.]
Last time someone said that to me, I felt pretty uncomfortable, like there was something wrong. Usually I get that feeling when it’s Twilight Zone time and somebody has demonstrated a poor connection to reality. What the guy should have said to me was, “Thank you for helping expand the American Empire and subjugating and/or killing innocent people in other countries.” Then I would have been able to respond, “Yeah, sorry about that. You know how teenagers are idiots who think they know everything, when all they know is how to be manipulated. That was me, in spades.”
Of course it’s easy for me to talk this way because I was never faced with the problem of how to live with killing someone who was defending his country from invaders. Reality for some people can really suck, which is maybe why so many do their best to avoid it, at least in some respects.
Why bring this up at all? Why disturb peoples’ fantasies? Well, I think we need to stop killing and invading, even if it makes us uncomfortable to talk about this stuff. I am encouraged about the resistance to invading or bombing Syria. Maybe more people really are getting it.
Needless to say, I don’t bother dancing with the VA bureaucracy for anything.
This is where I got mine a few years ago.
http://www.archives.gov/veterans/military-service-records/
Make copies.
@Paul Bonneau – sorry, but the opinions you expressed are the reason the Libertarian Party lost half its members after 9/11. Go suck an egg.
Old Printer — Please remember that disagreement is welcome here; name-calling and personal slights are not. “Go suck an egg” at least verges on personal attack and I can’t believe you think it’s persuasive way to make a point. Watch it. You are close to being banned from commenting.
Claire
I told my husband last night about the DD214 and he said and I want to pass
this message on to all veterns, is to record your DD214 at the country court
house in the county that you live in. Then it will also be in the county records.
That is what the military told my husband to do when he retired.Also we just
refinance our home and could have used the VA loan but acturally found that it
was cheapter to use the regular conventanl loan. In fact that is the way that
it has been always with us in the last 20 years. So it may be worth shopping
around.
Blessings
Debby